26. Extra Episode Housing and Homelessness Series with Marion McFadden, HUD
Michelle Rathman: Hello to all and welcome back to The Rural Impact, a podcast that works hard to connect the dots between policy and rural everything, or at least everything we can think of and put into what we aim to be an enlightening and informative conversation. And if you're new to the community, I'm Michelle Rathman and I am elated, and I mean that, that you're here wherever that is and however it is you found us, we're glad that you did.
Okay, today is what we refer to around here as a Rural Impact Extra Day. It's not an extra day of the week, of course, but it's extra for us because it's a podcast episode that's popping up at a Thursday that you weren't expecting. And that's because of course we're smack dab in the middle of our series focused on rural housing and homelessness.
If you've been listening and if not, please go back and listen to these episodes. We'd be appreciative if you would. We've had conversations about the lack of rural housing inventory, policy associated with increasing access to capital and resources to address said housing shortages. We've talked about policy working to cap the percentage of how much of a person or a family's income will be spent on rent, which right now, I think, if I recall is about 30 percent of their earnings.
We've been promoting National Healthy Homes Month, which is April, and I'm heard from the Executive Director of the National Center for Healthy Housing on the impacts of unhealthy housing in rural places. Very enlightening conversation. And in our last episode, I had a moving and eye-opening conversation with Elizabeth Carpenter-Song.
And Elizabeth shared her immersive research captured in her outstanding book, Families on the Edge: Experiences of Homelessness and Care in Rural New England. If you have not read her book, I, I really encourage you to do so. It just puts such a different lens on the subject of homelessness. And I think one that after you read the stories of those she met on their journey, you can agree there is a lot to be said about how much more we need to humanize the challenges around homelessness, whether it's rural or urban.
Okay. We have another regular episode coming in this series that will drop as planned next week. But we interrupt this series with an extra episode, as I said, because I had the awesome opportunity to talk with Marion McFadden and Marion serves as the United States Department of Housing and Urban Development's Principal deputy assistant secretary for community planning and development.
In this role, Deputy Assistant Secretary McFadden oversees the administration of federal financial assistance to assist communities and ending homelessness, creating and preserving affordable housing, strengthening local economies and disaster recovery and mitigation. We touch on so many of these things.
So, I'm so thankful that she could carve out time in her very busy, busy schedule for us. And I think you'll agree after hearing from her that while RURAL is not represented in the acronym HUD, rural is most definitely front and center in HUD's mission. Okay. You know, this is a time during this podcast that I invite you to tune out the background noise and listen to a conversation with Marion McFadden.
Are you ready? Let's go!
Michelle Rathman: Marion McFadden, Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for Community Planning and Development at the U. S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, better known to most as HUD. Thank you for joining us on The Rural Impact. We are so glad to have you here with us, which at the time of this recording, I have to mention is Fair Housing Month.
Welcome.
Marion McFadden: Thanks Michelle. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here and have a chance to talk about the work that we're doing.
Michelle Rathman: Well, we're grateful because, so often, obviously the name HUD how urban is in there. Rural might be somewhere in the background, but I think it's important for our listeners of The Rural Impact to really understand the work of HUD in the rural context. So that might be the best place for us to start.
Marion McFadden: I'm so glad, you're absolutely right. HUD has urban in the name and not rural, but truly the funds reach all over the country. All 50 states, all the territories, we see residents benefiting from HUD funds. So, I'm really pleased to have the chance to talk about it. I lead the office of community planning and development, which receives about 10 billion dollars annually.
In formula and competitive grant funds, we have several billion dollars and congressionally directed spending where Congress is picking the individual projects that are being funded and we have tens of billions of dollars for long term disaster recovery. So, no matter what we're working on, we're ensuring that funds are reaching the needs of people living in rural America so that we can be building stronger communities and ensuring that housing and community development needs are met.
Michelle Rathman: My goodness. And when you talk about recovery, I mean, we are recording this conversation. I always say folks, we're a week behind sometimes, but on April 17th, and we've just had another whole round of devastating weather, you know, and you see total communities wiped out, be it through tornadoes or flooding or what have you.
And so, that's just a whole other subject. And as I mentioned in our first, this is within our series that we're doing on housing and homelessness, and we went into detail about capacity building and even with the recovery work that we do.
I mean, people say, 'Oh, capacity building. What does it actually look like?' And so I thought maybe what we could do is also have you talk about, where HUD is concerned, the need for capacity building in order to address rural housing challenges. Because Jonathan Harwitz schooled me on that. That's where you start. And then let's just talk a little bit about the HUD exchange program and the rural capacity building programs that you do.
And what that actually looks like to somebody who's, you know, living in a rural community.
Marion McFadden: Great. Happy to. And I know your audiences had the benefit of hearing some from some of the real leaders in this field who've been working on delivering and asking for resources for building technical assistance across rural areas all over the country. So happy to join in that part of the conversation.
One of our major programs is the CDBG Program, Community Development Block Grant. That's actually turning 50 this year. So, chances are wherever you live, you've gotten the benefit of some of these funds. And that funding goes to all of the states and to larger communities, but the states push funds out to 6,000 small communities across the country every year.
When we talk about capacity building, we're talking about capacity to get things done, but also to understand how to use the federal grant dollars that are flowing into communities. So, part of the work we're doing is tailoring to using explicit programs and some is more broadly. What does it take to get the work done?
With the CDBG program, we have something called the 108 Loan Guarantee. It's probably the worst name of a program you've ever heard.
Michelle Rathman: It sounds so exciting.
Marion McFadden: I like to call it the CDBG maximizer.
Michelle Rathman: Okay, that's better.
Marion McFadden: A little more exciting. And that's where we're ensuring that communities that are getting grants, whether they're state, cities, counties or territories can actually borrow up to five times the amount they're getting in low interest loans.
And those loans are guaranteed by the government. So, we have seen those loan guarantees do some really incredible things in different communities. For example, in Pennsylvania, the state and some counties work together to get a loan guarantee to save one of their big employers, The 184 Lumber Company. They also did some work around a department store Boscovs, right?
So, you may think about us as affordable housing dollars only, but we're really in there ensuring that jobs and businesses are retaining employees to have and having the opportunity to build and to go forward. When I was at a nonprofit called Enterprise Community Partners, I got the chance to work in rural communities around capacity building dollars. And I remember saying to someone, 'Why, why do you need ongoing capacity? Why is it important every year?' And he said to me, 'Because everything changes all the time.' You know, our housing needs change where the economic opportunities are change. And that's something I've really taken with me. And so, ensuring that as we're doing capacity building, we're making our expertise and sharing it in rural America.
We're understanding that we need to equip people with the best thinking and the best understanding of what's possible.
Michelle Rathman: You know what you say just makes my brain churn because I think about this on this podcast, we work at connecting the dots. I mean, that's so important between policy and rural everything. And I think about your work, and then I think about the work of, for example you know, the Department of Labor's work, and this is what the parts that fascinate me, because if we're going to attract large factories into rural communities and businesses, tech industry and rural communities, healthcare in rural communities, education.
We have to have housing. We have to have a affordable, accessible housing. And so, let's talk just a little bit about the Rural Gateway Program. I mean, I've been through the website. There's a lot of interesting places that you can go. And then I want to shift the conversation to some other things that you're doing, but part of the capacity building is connecting people with the right resources at the right time might be a good way to say it.
Marion McFadden: Yeah, that's a great way to say it. So happy to talk about the Rural Gateway, but let me even take a step back a little bit to talk about the work. So our acting secretary, Adrian Todman pulled us all together across all of HUD, not just my office, but everything we're doing to ensure that we are coordinating around the way that funds are reaching people in smaller communities.
So she created the Rural Prosperity Coordinating Council so that we have a lasting entity inside of HUD that's committed to strengthening our impact in rural communities. So, that council's been really active on a number of fronts including listening to rural communities, right? We have to start with understanding what's needed streamlining our definition of rural when we can in our programs so that it's easier for the funding to get to rural communities.
And coordinating across the federal family, especially with our partners at USDA, so that we're not asking different things of communities when possible. So, we're working together to meet needs instead of saying you all need to become experts in what we're doing. We're trying to better understand what's needed and then see how we can bring our expertise.
That culminated in the launch of rural.gov. Which is a way for folks to check up on what's going on in the federal government without having to get inside of every agency's website. So, good starting point.
Michelle Rathman: I love that. If any of you, if you've seen a previous episode, we had Tony Pippa on and Tony Pippa's famous, you know, spaghetti chart. We call it a hot mess of all the agencies serving all the different programs. And there's so much in one hand. It's really promising because there is so much going on.
And the other hand, it's very confusing because there is so much going on, and a lot of wires cross. And I, and I really amplify what you're saying with rural.gov because it does make it easy to navigate that. And it can be very intimidating to say, you know, community leader, somebody who wants to invest in housing to say, gee, I think I'll just call the department of so and so and so and so.
You, you all, you've made it easy to navigate through those channels. And along those lines, you've got, as we just talked about the Rural Gateway Program and maybe some specifics, if it's helpful about how that might work for some of our listeners. And then I want to get into some number crunching, if you will, and talk a little bit about some of the homeless challenges that we know we're facing in rural as well.
So like specifically the clearinghouse. I mean it was established in like 1998 or something like that, but I'm just curious if you could share with us a few things about the peer-to-peer network for local development agencies. I, myself was fascinated to hear, and I don't know why I didn't know this, that you had offices in pretty much every state
Marion McFadden: Yeah, we try to meet people where they are. I wish we could be in every single state, but we are out in community, right? We're not just all sitting in Washington, D.C. making policy. We're there to support recipients of the funding to make sure they can make the best choices. So, back since fiscal year 1998, Congress authorized us to have an office of rural housing and economic development at HUD, which includes the clearing house that you mentioned for federally designated rural and underserved communities.
So, we're working with communities like the lower Mississippi Delta River region, Appalachia's distressed communities, colonias and of course, federally recognized Indian tribes. That's the rural gateway that you mentioned, and it's designed to be an informational clearinghouse with technical assistance.
And the thing I like the most, peer learning. To support rural housing and economic development. It can mean so much more to hear what someone has tried and has actually worked in a community. So, whenever possible, we try to encourage peers to teach one another. It's not new, right? Like I said, since 1998, but it continues to be popular and well used.
However, we know that many of your listeners may not be aware of it. So, it's a great resource. I hope.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah I think, you know, I, as I talk to different counties and so forth, and I say, did you know about, and, because these positions turn over so quickly and the people who need to know, maybe they're so new and they don't identify with it. So, I appreciate that. All right. So, we're also being mindful in this series to include conversations about rural homelessness.
Again, for many people you talk to, I mean, obviously it looks very different. And we've talked to some authors and some reporters on this subject and some researchers, but I wonder if you could touch on that, because as I'm reading here, fiscal year, 2022-23, billions of dollars were awarded by HUD to organizations addressing housing disparities and homelessness.
So, I wonder if you can talk to us about the rural impact of those, some examples of grantees, those organizations that are working to confront these challenges and what you've seen out there.
Marion McFadden: Sure. Thanks for the question and I could go on and on. So let me know if I'm saying too much. But this has been a really important priority for the Biden Harris Administration and for HUD in particular. We were devastated to see a large uptick in homelessness in last year's point in time count. So that was in January 2023.
However, I will say we have been working since day one of the Biden Harris Administration to address homelessness with the urgency that it requires. Wherever people are living without a home, we're working hard to ensure supports and resources are provided. We have taken sweeping and innovative steps to address homelessness head on.
We know that we know how to solve homelessness. There are people all over the country who have made it back on their feet, and so we know what works. But we know that we need additional resources to keep funding the cycle that works in supporting people. So, we put a historic influx of five billion dollars into communities through the Home American Rescue Plan Program.
People have heard it called HomeARP. And that's for use for affordable housing, rental assistance, non-congregate shelter, and supportive services. So, all kinds of communities, including rural communities have benefited. We're projecting that we'll see 22,000 new rental units and 25,000 units of housing for people who are experiencing homelessness or facing housing instability.
Excited to see those projects move forward. Earlier this year, we put out 3.16 billion dollars in grants for homelessness assistance. So that's in more than 7,000 projects. That's the largest ever amount of funding provided to address homelessness through our continuum of care program. We're excited about the expansion of housing and services for people who are experiencing homelessness, including survivors of domestic violence and sexual assault, stalking.
We want to make sure that resources are available for people when they need them the most. And we have focused on the unique needs of rural communities. We have a Youth Homelessness Demonstration Program or YHTP where we're supporting young people and helping set direction in how their needs are met across a range of housing programs, rapid rehousing, permanent supportive housing, transitional housing.
And we included a rural bonus there to support applications coming from rural America. And in 2023, we had the opportunity to do a special award of funds for addressing homelessness for both unsheltered homelessness and rural homelessness. We awarded almost half a billion dollars to 62 communities in 35 states, and then we're able to partner those grant dollars with 3,300 stability vouchers.
So we're really bringing everything we can to the table to address this challenge of homelessness, but understanding that rural communities have unique needs and funds have to be made available exclusively for rural communities.
Michelle Rathman: Everything that you just shared, I will make sure that we reference as much as we can and better still, we'll put the links on the website so that people can read for it themselves. Because, in this series, I don't want to put the cart before the horse, but we do talk about teen homelessness.
And what we find is, obviously state by state, policies are different. And to me, the programs that you're describing truly are like, they are the safety net. In particular, if there are not levers in place to make sure that there's priority funding at the state level.
You all are doing what you can to make sure that those resources are available. Oh, my gosh. So, from what I understand the time we have left. The time of this recording, the conference is that HUD proposed levels of funding if adopted by Congress would cut some of the programs that we had a conversation with Jonathan about this that are most important to rural areas.
So, for example, what I read was community development block grants, or, as you said, CDBGs would fall from $3.3 billion in 2024 to $2.9 billion in 2025. And then on the other side, Native American housing would see a sharp drop from $1.1 billion to $820 million. So what can you tell our listeners about the needs and nuances of this funding and what's important for us to understand when we advocate to ensure that resources continue to come into rural places that need it not the least or the most, but that need it.
Marion McFadden: Yeah, the CDBG program, as I mentioned, is 50 years old this year. And that's because of the advocacy that you're talking about. That's because members of Congress have heard from communities that it's important. It's needed. It's well used and needs to remain available for communities. This year, the president had agreed to budget caps, right?
Extending into the fiscal year 2025 budget. So that led to some tough choices. But the budget is so much more, right? There are two sides to the budget. And when you look at the request for housing as a whole, including the mandatory side of the budget, there's really a large ask for investment. In affordable housing, including addressing homelessness, including creating new homeowners and providing supports for people, no matter what kind of housing they have, or no matter what kind of housing they need.
We know that there is a great need out there and we know that the programs that we have, and the work that people are doing is working for the folks who are benefiting, but there's a need to go larger. That's why we saw a large ask across the budget as a whole. Also, I've been really excited to hear the president talking about housing.
I mean, even in the State of the Union and really elevating the issue so that it becomes a common place conversation, not just a conversation among people who need housing or those of us in the affordable housing field.
Michelle Rathman: Well, I know also that you are doing so much work around, taking care of veterans’ needs where housing is concerned. There's a whole other arm of the work that you're doing that's addressing, as we talked about earlier, disaster recovery that is affected by climate change as well. I, that's a whole other conversation.
And I, before we close out, I know that you have something that. It's exciting and, right at the tip of your tongue that you want to share with us. So, what is that news?
Marion McFadden: Oh, Michelle, thanks for asking. This is one of my favorite things to talk about. We have new grant funding available for manufactured housing residents and manufactured housing communities. This is called the Price Program. We have $225 million dollars that is available for replacing old manufactured housing units that have become obsolete, for improving infrastructure, and for making resilience needs, addressing resilience needs of disaster prone communities.
So that notice of funding opportunity is on the street now. The applications are due in June. So, check out the Price Program.
Michelle Rathman: Okay, the Price Program, we're going to put that link right on our website too. So, you have no excuses for not being curious. With that said, oh, my gosh, Marion McFadden, Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for Community Planning and Development at HUD. We Thank you so much for your time, me and that, for joining us, really illuminating conversation, and we want to hear more, I think is important.
So if you've got something else to share with us, you are welcome back anytime.
And to all of you, you know, I say these are not light subjects. We hope they have enlightened you. And of course, every road to quality of life is paved by policy. So, stay tuned to this. Get curious, go to the websites that we referenced so you yourself can stay in the know.
Um, be sure to rate us, leave us your comments. Don't forget to subscribe and receive our blogs and all the other good stuff that we like to send out to populate your inbox. Until next time, take good care of yourself and everyone else around you.
