27. Housing & Homelessness with Jess Huff, Erin Carreon and Mallory VanMeeter
Michelle Rathman: Hello to all and welcome back to the Rural Impact, a podcast that works hard to connect the dots between policy and rural everything, or at least everything that we can think of and put it into what we aim to be an enlightening and informative conversation.
Now, if you're new to our community, I'm Michelle Rathman, and I'm elated that you're here, wherever that is. And however, it is that you found us, we're certainly glad that you did. Before we get into our discussion, I want to take just a second to share with you that not only does today's episode bring our 2024 series on rural housing and homelessness to a close, it doesn't mean we're not going to revisit it again.
But the Rural Impact is quickly approaching our one-year anniversary of the show. And what a year it has been for rural policy. My goodness, from tracking the American Rescue Plan Act and everything that that has entailed, the bipartisan infrastructure law and the CHIPS and Science Act, of course, keeping an eye on the farm bill developments and a host of other legislation at both the state and federal level, there really is no shortage of topics for us to talk about.
And of course, there's so many voices that we want to have at this table. And that is why I am personally inviting you to go ahead and subscribe and be a part of our community. And when you do, it's very easy. Just visit “THE RURAL IMPACT DOT COM,” scroll down to the bottom. There's a little button that says, join our list and you will receive our post series recaps, updates, resources that we share, and so much more.
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Okay. With that said, I want to just tell you a little bit about today's episode. As I said, it's closing out our series this year on rural housing and homelessness. In February of this year, you may have read it too. I read an article in the Daily Yonder, but it came, it was republished from another paper in Texas.
And this article really hit me in the pit of my stomach. The piece was titled, "From couch surfing to sleeping in a car: What one teen story tells us about homelessness and rural Texas." I reached out to the writer of that piece, Jess Huff from the Texas Tribune, as I said, and asked her to join me for this series to discuss her reporting.
And with that, I felt it was really important for us to dive deeper into the data that appeared in her piece. So, we also reached out to Erin Carreon and Mallory VanMeeter, both of whom are researchers at Chapin Hall at the University of Chicago. Now some key insights to keep in mind as you listen to this conversation and others that we've had in this series.
And of course, we know that at the time of this recording homelessness is you know, inching its way towards being criminal in some states. And so, we're really paying attention to that because this impacts rural. It impacts rural homeless families and teens. And some of the things that we know are that most rural counties lack the services designed to specifically address youth experiencing homelessness. That's a challenge.
We know that rural youth are more likely to be hidden in their communities, as you'll learn about today. Because they often rely on couch surfing at a friend's or a stranger's home, sleeping in a vehicle, or staying outdoors, and another really key insight from here is that rural youth experience far more challenges than those in urban areas when it comes to connecting with education and employment opportunities.
Of course, another driving factor in this conversation. So, when you think about rural policy in the context of homelessness, I hope that you'll keep this conversation in mind. And with that said, I invite you to tune out that background noise, get into your podcast frame of mind, and listen to my conversations with Jess Huff, Erin Carreon, and Mallory VanMeeter.
Okay. Are you ready? Let's go.
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Michelle Rathman: Welcome, Jess Huff East Texas reporter from the Texas Tribune, whose great writing is also appearing in one of my favorite all time journalism resources, which is the Daily Yonder. Jess, thank you for joining me in the Rural Impact. It's good to have you with us. We're glad that you're here.
Jess Huff: Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm excited about this opportunity.
Michelle Rathman: Well, I have to tell you, I was excited to read as I said, as I was researching this particular series that we're launching. Your headline came across my feed from a Daily Yonder feed. And the headline is, "From couch surfing to sleeping in a car: What one teen story tells us about homelessness and rural Texas."
It didn't just speak to me actually, Jess, it kind of screamed at me because as I said, I read it when I was you know, really putting this together. And I think it's a seriously important story that needs to be shared. You've done such a great job of it. So I read than reinvent the wheel. I really want to invite you back and tell us.
And really have you start us off by telling us about how this piece was assigned to you, how did it come to you and then tell us a little bit about Georgia and then we'll go from there.
Jess Huff: Yeah, absolutely. So, Georgia was actually the inspiration behind the piece. I was, as you do when you're a journalist working on a specific beat regarding a region. You're in a lot of Facebook groups, you're on a lot of social media pages, and you're looking to see what people are telling about themselves.
And Georgia had actually posted on a Facebook group anonymously saying that she was a teenager. She had a job, but she didn't have a place to stay, and she needed to get a shower. She needed to wash some clothes so she could be ready to go to work. And so, I ended up reaching out to her. I had a number of people within the community also say, 'Hey, maybe you need to talk to this teenager, see what you can find out.'
And so, I spoke to her, and then I pitched the story to my editor, and we decided that it, it was something that we needed to move forward on. Georgia is a character. She really is. She's a sweet girl. She is extremely empathetic. And I think that she places a lot of the blame on her situation on herself.
If you sit there and you listen to her,
Michelle Rathman: We'll talk about that Jess because I did read that. I mean, and that, I think that's an interesting dynamic all by itself. Before, you know, you kind of take us through George's life, I'm really curious about some of the data that you learned because you had to do your homework. You've got some really good stats in there.
What are some of the things that you learned about America's rural homeless population, in particular teens? And I know your focus in this case, in Georgia's case, is in Texas. Kind of share with us where she is today. Just give us a little bit of snapshot of where she was when you talk to her.
What are some of the data that maybe can help explain how things got to that situation?
Jess Huff: Yeah, absolutely. So Georgia is located in Lufkin, which is a lovely little community. But it is also a part of this rural South dynamic that a lot of people know as the Bible Belt. And one of the things that really stuck out in reporting on this story was the number of LGBTQ+ Youth who were facing homelessness.
And while in speaking with her family, they say that that wasn't a key factor in, you know, what drove her to that. Georgia does attribute, some of her homelessness to feeling misunderstood and as if she was doing something that was wrong or that was bad in the way that she was living. And so, the number of homeless youth that we see across the country is greatly exacerbated by their participation or their involvement in the LGBTQ+ community, right? Which isn't something that's a choice of their own. And so that was one
Michelle Rathman: Contrary to popular belief in some circles, but go ahead.
Jess Huff: And I think that one of the, one of the other issues that stuck out to me was just how few resources we actually have. Texas has been undergoing this crazy drastic debate over what's happening with Child Protective Services and how we take care of Texas's youth. And if you're not involved in that CPS system, there's really nothing for you.
There's not a shelter, there's nowhere for you to go. And a lot of times, even the places that you could possibly go are so badly represented that they're seen as a scary place. A teenager would rather sleep in a car or under a bridge than go to a shelter.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah, let's talk about that too, because I think there's a lot of sweeping assumptions that we could make. And rural is an interesting dynamic, is it not? Because, you know, we know for a fact that those numbers are under counted. In fact, I think some of the, which we'll talk about later, some of the research talked about that, because.
They it's just, it looks different than what it does in an urban area, which seems to get a lot of attention
Jess Huff: Yeah, yeah, it certainly does. A lot of people, they can recognize that a kid on the street in Dallas or, or Houston, you know, that they're probably homeless, this is what this looks like. But if you're in a rural community, that kid walking down the street, there's a 50/50 chance of what kind of situation they're facing.
There's nowhere for people to actually count them, and they're more likely to be widespread, right? So, Lufkin has a lot of parks, has a lot of places that you could be deep in the woods and have a camp, and nobody would have any idea of where you are.
Michelle Rathman: Or sleeping on someone’s couch. And I think I what I read was, you know, when the census was being done, Georgia was.
Jess Huff: On her girlfriend's couch, yeah.
Michelle Rathman: On her girlfriend’s couch, and so therefore not counted.
Jess Huff: Right, right. And you see a lot of that as well here. I think you see a lot of that with homelessness in general. Not just with teens, but with people across the board, is that they find somebody's couch that they can crash on for a week or two, and they move on and on.
Michelle Rathman: And so, we talked a little bit about the shelters and you know, how they are seen as scary and understandably so, because that's probably another whole different subject about what life can be like, in some shelters. And not to say that there aren't some really good places, because you also talk about places and organizations that are doing good work to, you know, kind of, as I've described a catch people when they're being pushed over the edge, you know, versus doing the things and they're working to do the things, on the front end to make sure they don't get there.
But in Texas in particular, there is a rule about the age group or, or about unaccompanied minors. So that's a roadblock in itself.
Talk to us about that.
Jess Huff: Yeah, absolutely. Many shelters can't take anybody under the age of 18. So, if you are 17 and a half, 17 years old and six months, you know, until you hit 18, there's a lot of these places that you can't access. There's also roadblocks to other adults attempting to help you. That's you know, a part of the story is talking to Pam and Yvonne Smith, who run the Kaleidoscope Life Foundation.
And one of their biggest issues, they've been advocates for kids for more than a decade, is talking about they can't, they can't house those children. They can help them to get their clothes cleaned. They can help them to find homes that can successfully help them, but there's so few and far between and there's so many rules that keep those kids out of those safe places, and so there's just when it comes to helping somebody who's under the age of 18 typically between about 13 and 17 and a half, there's not much that can be done in Texas to support them.
Michelle Rathman: And as they point out, these are individuals who are unable to sign contracts for themselves, unable to make these really important, you know, life decisions. I think one of the things that, I read about, because you know, it's Kaleidoscope Life, which is, seems like just a remarkable program, but I think as they described it, they've seen everything before people get to them, that's broken.
Yeah
Jess Huff: Yeah, that's 100%. One of the examples, and I wasn't able to use her in my story. She didn't consent, but what she was struggling with, what this young woman was struggling with was even being able to access a food bank because she could not prove that she lived in the community that she lived in.
She can't have her name on any utility bills. She can't have her name on the lease. You know, she can't even have her name on the car. And so, these kids are running into every possible roadblock that you could possibly find when it comes to setting yourself up.
Michelle Rathman: You know that it kind of brings back to circle Georgia's feelings about, she recognizes that she had some role in that. And so, I find everything what you've just shared with me to be a little bit challenging to wrap my brain around because so many doors have not opened so many in fact closed.
There's so many roadblocks in Georgia's way. And so, talk to us a little bit about her sentiment and maybe the context in which she shared that with you.
Jess Huff: Yeah. Georgia, like many rural teens struggles with mental health disorders. She's been in and out of youth psychiatric units. She has you know, a therapist, she's medicated but she, because of what she struggles with, with her mental health, she believes that her reactions that are a result of this mental health issue are her fault.
So the times that she has, you know, lost her space within her family, lost that safety net there. She says that it's her fault that, that she pushed them over the edge, and that's why she's not welcome there anymore.
Michelle Rathman: How, how backwards is that? And not, not anything disparaging to Georgia because we failed her, you know, it just, and I know that there are people in her life, if I, as I read in your piece, who care about her, who worry about her, you know, who were concerned about her in a car during the Texas freeze and having a urinary tract infection, for example.
I mean, it's just a horrifying way to think about a young person having to spend years of their life where they, you know, should be, should be enjoying their life and having safe harbor. Before we go, let me ask you, what did you glean from Pam and Yvonne Smith about, kind of what their, what needs to be done?
Because clearly what they do, I mean, they could, they're running around with a fire hose, if you will. So, what are some of the policy things that you could touch on from what they share with you that they felt were important for people to perk up and listen?
Jess Huff: Yeah, I think one of the big things is addressing how CPS works with the youth. They believe that the, the youth placement into like individual living, especially for the older teens, the 16-17 year olds, getting them into a place where they could start building their lives. Also making it easier for students to access GED programs.
You need a guardian if you're under 18 to sign off on that.
Michelle Rathman: Georgia says she can't remember the last time she was in a school in a classroom.
Jess Huff: Right, improving access to education just altogether as a homeless teen and also improving what schools have in order to address these teens. Lufkin ISD, which is where Georgia would have went, does have a person specifically dedicated to helping homeless teens. But how are they supposed to know that they're homeless if they haven't seen that teen since they were, what, 14?
Michelle Rathman: Yeah, I read that too. I thought, well, first of all, the first thing I thought was the singular has a person.
Jess Huff: Yeah.
Michelle Rathman: And so I imagine, do you, can you tell us before we go, where Georgia is? Do you know how? I mean, this was just this piece was just in February. I'm not sure the last time you communicated with Georgia, but how is Georgia doing?
Jess Huff: From what I understand, Georgia is back with her family, but that's not necessarily, in her eyes, the best possible situation. She, for it was about two days after the article came out, she took herself by bus to a different state where she was staying with an older man, and her family stepped in and called the police and got her picked up and brought back to Texas.
So, I know that she's, right now, she is trying to re-establish the independence that she feels like she should have, but also navigate this with a family who does clearly care about her and her well-being.
Michelle Rathman: My gosh, Georgia, we're willing you, we're willing you much better days ahead and more access to resources that you need to be sure. Jess before we, we move on to this conversation, because we have another really great piece to this episode.
What do you want readers of your piece and now listeners of our conversation to take away with respect to the issue of rural teen homelessness? Because we've just very barely scratched the surface on the issue. What, what do you think is important? Because we know policy plays a very, without your story, you know, we always say policymakers want our stories. They want our stories. Well, here you have a story. So, what should people take away from this?
Jess Huff: That there needs to be a change in the way that we work with these teens. A lot of times, just like every other teen that you've met, they're seeking that independence. And putting them in a situation where they lose all control of their life is not going to be the way to solve that.
So, we need to address in our system the way that will help these teens to build their lives on a stronger foundation. So sometimes that means supporting the families better, providing them the assistance that they need. But it also means providing the systems that we have in place, CPS, the school systems with the resources they need to step in on behalf of these students as well.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah, well said, well said. Because I just read it as in again my follow up research to this I just read about how the United States has the highest rate of teen incarceration. So, another whole issue to talk about to be sure.
Jess, thank you again for the work that you've done the story for introducing us to the University of Chicago Researcher Erin Carreon who along with colleague Mallory VanMeeter at Chapin Hall will be joining us up next to paint a fuller picture of the issues we're talking about here today about rural teen homelessness here on the Rural Impact.
So stay with us. We're coming right back after a quick break and a message about how you can share your impact story.
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Michelle Rathman: We are back for this second part of this Rural Impact Conversation on the topic of rural teen homelessness, right? Rural teen homelessness. So, you just heard my conversation with Jess Huff, and as you heard, Jess is a Texas Tribune reporter who wrote the piece, "From couch surfing to sleeping in a car: What one teen's story tells us about homelessness in rural Texas."
But that's one teen story. And so, I am very thankful to be joined today by two researchers, Erin Carreon and Mallory VanMeeter. And both Aaron and Mallory, as I said, they’re researchers are at Chapin Hall at the University of Chicago. Aaron and Mallory, thank you so much for being here with us today and giving us this context.
It's so important.
Mallory VanMeeter: Happy to be here.
Erin Carreon: Yes. Thank you so much for having us.
Michelle Rathman: Thank you. Boy, you, between the two of you, the research that I've read, all the paperwork I have in front of me is just pretty eye opening. So, Erin, I'd like to have you get us started off because you along with two others and I'll mention their names, Jonathan Brody and Matthew Morton, worked on a study that focused on the challenges and opportunities in addressing rural youth homelessness.
Talk to us about that. Tell us about the stakeholder focus groups and some of your key findings, if you could kick us off there. Sure.
Erin Carreon: Yeah, so this was an issue that, you know, is very understudied. And so went into this with a little bit of information from a previous study done by the Voices of Youth Counts at Chapin Hall, where we saw that the prevalence of youth homelessness in rural areas is just as much as in urban areas, even though people tend to think of it as more of an urban issue.
And so recognizing that, youth homelessness is just as prevalent in rural areas that really motivated this work. And we wanted to, like you said, better understand the unique challenges that rural communities are facing in the United States in addressing youth homelessness, the way they're responding to those challenges and opportunities to strengthen service delivery models in, in rural contexts.
Michelle Rathman: So important. You know, and as we sit here today, we're recording this in March. As we sit here today, you know, the blood starts boiling in me when I hear, about the, demonizing those who are, are unhoused or homeless. And, you know, in particular, when we're talking about teens, Mallory, you recently, as recently as 2023, you worked with others again at Chapin Hall on a project called focused on creating home in community.
And within that there is some policy recommendations, which we are going to touch on later, but for now, tell us about that project and its aim and touch on some of those outcomes, because I think it's an interesting premise, creating home in community.
Mallory VanMeeter: Sure. Yeah. So creating home in community was really about trying to tell a new story about youth homelessness. You probably heard the saying that, 'it takes a village to raise a child,' right? It's no different for youth who are experiencing housing instability and homelessness. So even though many of those youth have difficult histories of family disruptions, family loss and conflict, these youth still have and really need positive and lasting connections with people who care about them.
And that means not just service providers but actually extended family, friends, neighbors, mentors. You know, the people that we all turn to when times get tough for help.
So, the project really started from that grounding belief. And what we did was we pulled together some research evidence and examples from the field to talk about the value of that village of support. And we also talk about how those supports sometimes provide housing to youth informally. So, they act as informal hosts, informal housing providers.
This is kind of under the umbrella of what sometimes talked about as couch hopping, couch surfing, doubling up. And trying to reframe some of these arrangements as community strengths. This isn't really on the radar in policy and practice as of yet. So, the project was kind of trying to change that and challenge people's thinking about community-based housing.
So that we can design policies and services that might help those informal hosts offer young people a more stable place to stay.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah, let's talk a little bit about the invisibility of rural homelessness, in particular with teens. Either one of you, Erin or Mallory, I mean, your research is interesting because as we were talking offline, I go to so many rural communities and I mentioned one of the first things I, you know, talk about is social determinants of health and so forth. And I do ask about housing and homelessness, and many times the response is “it's not a problem here,” and yet your research kind of blows that out of the water.
Let's talk about the invisibility of teen youth homelessness in rural. Why is it so difficult, number one, to track, identify, what does that actually look like in your research and the communities and the stakeholders that you discussed this with?
Erin Carreon: Yeah, so, rural youth homelessness is much more hidden. And youth homelessness can be very hidden in urban areas too, but in rural areas it's especially hidden for a number of reasons. And I think one is that you're less likely to see it because young people are less likely to be staying in shelters, or in heavily trafficked areas.
They're more likely to be on couches, inside vehicles. If they are outdoors, they might be in the woods or somewhere more secluded. They may be in abandoned buildings. So, like these areas that rural areas provide just so much more spaces that, that hide homelessness and like the informal arrangements that, that Mallory mentioned as well.
I think another issue that comes into play, like you mentioned, is that people are less likely to recognize it when they do see youth homelessness, because there is a lack of maybe community awareness that that is what homelessness looks like in this area.
And so, there could be certain communities, right, where these informal arrangements and like couch hopping and substandard housing are just generally more normalized because it's such a large proportion of the community that are experiencing it as well.
Michelle Rathman: You know, Georgia's story, I think back, my mind was just going back when she couldn't remember the last time she stepped foot in a classroom, for example. And so, I guess what I, I'm also curious about what rural communities lack to adequately address and prevent youth homelessness? And when we figure out what it is they lack, we can move closer to understanding how we can fill those gaps. What does that look like?
Erin Carreon: So in the focus groups, we did focus groups in five different rural communities and different parts of the country with different compositions. And there was, you know, while the lack of services varied, it was pretty much across the board, right, that there's issues with lack of housing, lack of mental health services, lack of transportation, issues with Wi-Fi access, just safe spaces for young people to congregate and get support in navigating what resources might be available.
You know, lack of career and youth development opportunities. There's all, all kinds of resources are, dispersed in a way that they're not as successful for young people in rural areas.
Michelle Rathman: It makes me think about those other connections Mallory and Erin. I think about, you know, they're a guardian, a grandparent, a parent. So, when we talk about what rural communities lack, let's talk about the role of community support services to identify it. Because to your point, it can't just be law enforcement.
It can't just be, be this, how does, what does that look like in a, when a community is able to successfully address it? What does those support services look like for these young people?
Erin Carreon: I think it takes a lot of collaboration and that in the couple communities that had received this community level funding to, to support that collaboration, they were able to develop services, bringing all these different stakeholders together to work together to address the issue.
But I do think it's important to note, right. That, that not, there's so many less nonprofits per mile in a rural area that the ones that exist really tend to take on all kinds of responsibilities. And are not, or less specialized to a certain issue which affects the services that, that people get.
And in terms of the informal community supports, I think Mallory
Michelle Rathman: Yeah. Mallory, I'm curious about that because you know, it, this has got to be, the whole premise of creating home and community. It feels like it has to be super organic. But I wonder if there's a structure that you can kind of guide us through what that looks like when it's organized and there's a strategy behind it.
Mallory VanMeeter: Yeah, I think the good news is that communities do naturally care for young people. You know, this is already happening. When we look at the youth who have experienced some other form of homelessness over the course of a year, over half of them also were couch hopping or couch surfing.
So, this is something that, this is where the youth are, it's where they already are. And this, the question that I'm interested in is how we help those folks who are offering hospitality, do it in a way that's sustainable for them and help them get over those bumps and conflicts. You know, negotiations over shared space and rules and boundaries.
How do we create voluntary supports that they can access in their community to help resolve those issues? And also, many of them are struggling with financial and housing precarity themselves, and they're offering help to a young person who needs it. So how do we honor that while, also helping them navigate those housing and financial challenges that they may be facing?
Michelle Rathman: Well that is such a kind of an aha perspective for me because you don't think about the all those who are affected by it. And I, and then I, it begs the question for me, the long-term impacts of youth homelessness, you know, you two are doing some amazing research work. What have you found to be, you know, and tracking, just tell me a little bit about what you know about the long-term effects.
Mallory VanMeeter: Yeah I like to start by framing this on a broad level. I think it's important to recognize that, we're letting young people down when we fail to provide them with a stable launch pad to adulthood. You know, these are potential future teachers, future mothers, future firefighters, these are community members.
And the long-term impacts of youth homelessness don't just impact youth, they impact all of us because we're missing opportunities to foster stronger future communities when we don't provide that housing to young people. But we do know from the research that youth do truly suffer from experiencing housing instability.
Both in the immediate term and in the long-term there's impacts in terms of disconnection from school. It becomes very difficult to stay in school when you don't have a stable place to sleep at night. Very difficult to find and maintain adequate employment you know, as is true for older adults as well, who are experiencing housing instability.
There's significant impacts on social, emotional well-being, mental health, physical health you know, and we also know that many of the folks that become chronically homeless adults or adults experiencing housing instability had early experiences of housing instability as young people. So, this is, you know, a long- term story and it's also a problem that deeply affects youth, but also impacts all of us as well.
Michelle Rathman: You know, some of the reading that I've done and some of the conversation I had with Jess, we talked about the fact that, youth, they're not able to sign a contract. They're not able to, make those, really important, transitional decisions about, you know, just paying bills and obtaining a credit card and a bank account. And so, the roadblocks are plenty. I want to talk a little bit about the structural barriers, because your work also touches on equity and inclusion and racial equity.
So, let's talk a little bit about, I wish we could talk a lot about it, some of the structural barriers at the root of youth homelessness. And what is required for us to remove some of those structural barriers because they exist. What are they?
Mallory VanMeeter: Yeah. So, when I think about the sort of root causes of youth homelessness, I look at what we call disproportionality and the youth homeless population, which just means who's at greater risk. Who do we see at greater risk of housing instability? And we know that this is youth who come from low-income backgrounds.
This is youth who are youth of color, black, indigenous Latino or Latina, and other youth of color at greater risk. LGBTQ gender and sexual minority youth are at greater risk. And so, when we start to see these patterns, asked the question, 'Why, right? Why is this going on?' And in a lot of cases, we have to go back to the structural inequalities that set them up for instability in the first place.
And it's not just affecting the youth, it's also affecting their community and their families. So, I think about you know, structural inequalities that lead some communities to have fewer resources, rural communities in particular, rural communities of color are especially marginalized, have limited housing, access to affordable housing, intergenerational wealth is lower, right?
And so the resources that these families and communities have are limited. This sort of has a knock-on effect for youth as they grow up facing family homelessness and then later their own housing instability. And all of that, you know, contributes to conflict in the home as well.
Michelle Rathman: I just thought about this. Is your, in your research, are you compiling research that shows youth homelessness as them being on their own? Or is it counted within a family unit? How do you discern between the two? Or is that, does it matter?
Mallory VanMeeter: It does, yeah, that's a distinction that's made in research and policy. So, unaccompanied youth refers to minor youth, youth under 18, who are not with their parent or guardian and are unstably housed. Then you have transition aged youth or young adult homelessness. Youth homelessness is, you know, those older youth who are not, also, not with their guardian, but they're no longer a minor that are also unhoused.
But a lot of these youth are parenting. So, so, that's worth noting here. So, some of them are a family that's experiencing housing instability. It's a young person with their child. So that's also a large part of the story here, but we generally, in this sort of body of research, we're not looking at adult headed households with children who are unstably housed.
So that's, there's a whole other body of research on that, but we're mainly looking at those, youth and young adults who are on their own or potentially with their own children.
Michelle Rathman: And so grateful that you are, because, we're at a point where everyone who listens to this podcast knows that I am you know, a policy junkie in that. I really think it's important for us when, you know, when people say, oh, I really like their policies. I want people to ask more questions about the policies and so let's talk policy for a moment.
Policies are needed. And policies that have been enacted already it to help, measure the impact, but what are the key policy pivots that need to be made so that we are not talking about, this in the future, because, will we always have rural youth homelessness, or is there a policy that can be put into place at a local, state, federal level? What is your research telling us our lawmakers need to do to help address this very unfortunate, the numbers that we see?
Mallory VanMeeter: Yeah I certainly hope that, you know, the goal of our federal policy to address youth homelessness is to make it brief, rare, and non- recurring, right? That's the goal.
Michelle Rathman: Brief, rare, non-recurring.
Mallory VanMeeter: Brief, rare, and non-recurring. We, recognize that housing instability is probably something that will, you know, impact some youth, regardless of what we do.
But we want to make sure it impacts as few youth as possible for as short as possible and it doesn't happen to them again. And so, something that I would point out is that the Runaway and Homeless Youth Act, which is sort of the major policy that impacts youth homeless services in the U. S.
The way that it's written is very focused on youth as individuals. So risk factors related to youth behavior impacts on youth as an individual. There's very little, if any, discussion of youth in the context of their family, in the context of their community. And so, from my perspective, that's a gap in how we're framing the problem at a policy level that's limiting our imagination of what the solution could look like.
But I also think that there's some opportunities to make connections between the problem of youth homelessness and efforts that are going on in other areas, like community economic development, community housing development, making sure rural communities have adequate funding and infrastructure for doing community development and affordable housing development.
So eviction prevention, affordable housing, I know I saw recently a really interesting piece about incentivizing, allowing manufactured home communities to sort of shift towards cooperative ownership as a form of eviction prevention, which I think is super cool and relevant to many rural areas. And also, I would point out opportunities to fund and support development of housing that's actually designed for multi-generational households.
So, creating housing where multiple families can live together more comfortably. And then in terms of I think it's important also to point out how we measure success. And, you know, how at the federal level, the measures that we use are, are sort of proposed for measuring success in terms of addressing youth homelessness, that trickles down to the local level, how we evaluate programs, how communities track their progress in terms of addressing the problem.
And a few years ago, the United States Interagency Council on Homelessness released a guidance that was basically talking about the national strategy for ending youth homelessness and they identified four, four outcomes that they felt were core to addressing the problem, and that was employment and education, social emotional well-being, housing stability, and permanent connection.
So that's the piece that I get excited about. I think they're all important. They're all critical for solving this problem. But I was, you know, happy to see that we were also including connectedness relationship in this.
Michelle Rathman: Yes, and then that can be so difficult for policymakers to wrap their brain around because it's hard to quantify. You're like, what, what, how much do you put in the budget for that? Where does it go? And so, but with the four of those working together.
And then I think for both of you, just the parent supports. I mean, there is something in that scenario where, there's something that's broken. And so not the people are broken, but somehow the systems, have failed to support the family. Before we go you know, aside from talking about policy, I think it's incumbent upon all of us to be advocates for as many things as we can possibly, fit into our hearts and then, take to action.
But let's talk about what advocates need to know. And how does the research help to inform policies at the federal, state and local level? Because your research is invaluable, especially when it's put to work. You know, if we can look at these numbers and say, this is motivating me to move to this, the dial to the next step.
What do advocates community advocates need to know? Because, you don't want to be known on the map for having the largest population of youth homelessness in your rural county. Not that I imagined. So, what does that look like for those who are out there saying, yeah, I'm going to talk to my member of state, federal, local government about some of the things that need to happen.
What do they need to know?
Erin Carreon: I think one thing that's key is developing a community of advocates across rural areas that can work together to amplify their voices. And I think there's some work that's been done in this area, but I think more bridges could be built across communities.
And I think, you know, things like this podcast. I see how you're doing that and making a space for dialogue across communities, which I think is really important. I think also recognizing that folks are experts in their own communities, especially when some rural communities are so different from each other, right?
Context means so much. And so, recognizing that the voice of young people in your specific community and the challenges that they're seeing their encounter and finding ways to, to include young people in these conversations like youth action boards and bring their voices forefront as well as more marginalized communities, tribal nations and tribal communities.
Making sure that when these conversations about how to address youth homelessness are happening that folks who are most marginalized are included at the table. I think that's really key.
Michelle Rathman: And I think going back to a very early point is we have to understand what the numbers are, know your numbers, you know, what does that look like in your community? Because if you don't know, it's very difficult to put solutions to what you don't understand. And so, I think understanding how to count, when we were having an earlier conversation, one of the reasons why Georgia didn't show up anywhere is because she was living on someone's couch at the time.
And so do you have any advice for community leaders out there when they're trying to say, all right, we actually do need to, we want to wrap our brains around our youth homelessness challenge in our community. Is there any measurement tool? What do you recommend if anything that they do to understand what their numbers are?
Mallory VanMeeter: What I would say is that one of the complicating realities is that different federal agencies use different definitions of homelessness.
Michelle Rathman: Yes.
Mallory VanMeeter: And so the most common count that happens nationally is orchestrated by Housing and Urban Development. And they require that any community which receives funds for services from HUD does a youth count every so often.
And so, their definition often excludes folks who are doubled up or couch hopping. And so, the guidance you receive from, about those youth, about those counts is not going to serve you well in finding where folks are unstably housed. But there is guidance out there. There's examples of counts.
The Voices of Youth Count Project, which was done by Chapin Hall in 2016- 2017 sort of piloted an approach to doing a youth count, which was different from traditional count methods. And it used young people as interviewers. It took, it was happened over the course of a week rather than a night.
They did focus groups to talk to youth about where young people were in the community and also tried to outreach to reach those young people who are hidden. And it's not perfect. It's a hard problem. But it is better than, you know, how we have been capturing the problem in the past.
Michelle Rathman: And that you have done such amazing research. I want to let our listeners know that on our website we are going to put links to where people can find your amazing research. Read about it to read about it is to understand it, to understand it is to be able to do something about it.
Erin and Mallory, I'm really grateful again for you joining us and for really opening up our eyes and shedding light on what would normally just kind of go unnoticed and it's an important subject and we need to keep talking about it and keep our focus there because they are our future. And, they are deserving of an enriched life that it's a safe housing home environment.
With the resources that they need to thrive. So again, just really appreciate your work and we'll keep following you. And if there's some things that you believe we need to know about, send them our way.
Mallory VanMeeter: Well, thanks so much, Michelle.
Michelle Rathman: Thank you. Well, to our listeners, we've just wrapped up our Housing and Homelessness and America's RuralPlaces series. This will not be the last time that you hear about it. We're always doing a Rural Impact extras when we're able to get some policymakers in here and also those who are serving and various administrations to talk about some of the, you know, when policy meets the road is, as they say, and when funding comes to bear in rural communities. We want to know how it's being spent to address these kinds of issues.
So again, never any light subjects around here, but we hope that what you've heard today helped to enlighten you a little bit about a subject that you might not have been curious about before.
Before we go, I also want to make sure that I thank Brea Corsaro, our Associate Producer for all her hard work, to Sarah Staub for her technical, her graphics, her editing, everything that she does. And of course to Jonah Mancino for lending his talent in our music department. Until next time of a new episode of the Rural Impact, I'm going to ask you to take good care of yourself.
Don't forget to check your voter registration. That should be the next thing you do after you're done listening. And we'll see you again soon on The Rural Impact.
