28. Pathways and Policies to Ensure Rural Learners Succeed with Manny Lamarre, Mary Wurtz and Andrew Campbell
Michelle Rathman: Hello, and welcome back to The Rural Impact. I'm Michele Rathman, and this is the podcast that works hard to connect the dots between policy and rural everything, or as I say, at least everything rural that we can think of. If you're joining us for the first time, we're so glad that you found us, however that is, because you are in for an enlightening conversation.
But before introducing you to my guest for this brand new series, I have a few things that I want to share some, some news and notes, if you will. First, I want to extend a heartfelt thanks to all of our listeners, our subscribers, and those of you who reach out to us with your kind notes and words of encouragement.
It has been so, just really heartwarming to be stopped at a conference and to have folks tell me that they enjoy listening. I really do appreciate that. And I'm excited to share that at the time of this episode, we are marking our first year anniversary of the Rural Impact. And to celebrate this milestone, I am elated to share that with this latest series, we welcome Ascendium Education Group to our partner network.
Now you're going to learn so much more about Ascendium Education Group and the incredible work that they're doing and the impact that they make in and for rural. So please stay tuned for those details. I can't wait for you to learn more. Now, next I do want to hit the rewind button for just a second, because as you probably know, we have just come off of our series focused on rural housing and homelessness, and this included a conversation focused on healthy homes.
Recognizing that just having a roof overhead isn't enough. And as we know, tragically, often falls woefully short of healthy and safe. So, the response to these episodes that we've received actually was four in total. It really just tells me that these conversations are ones that we must be having more of and we're going to really work to do that and then keep you informed on some of the policy issues that we track during those conversations so that you can be informed when you make your decisions about the policies that you like and those who put them forth next.
Or maybe stand in front of the ability for them to move forward. All right. So since we're the last recording, there has been some movement on rural policy that impacts just about every aspect of rural and not just for the 65 million or so people who live in America's rural places, but really the entirety of the United States.
Because if we haven't figured it out by now, Rural has a connection to just about everything in our lives, no matter your zip code. And so often it's easy to do, we can take it for granted. So, I want to share with you just in case you missed it, but I've been following the Farm Bill, and and I follow the farm bill because it is like a cornerstone of rural policy. And things have not been going so great until some recent news this week or this past week that I want to share with you.
But again, I want to say, check our website for notes and links so that you can get the latest information because we are recording this on May 16th. And what I'm about to share with you happened just a few weeks ago. Sometimes the news moves fast and in this case it's moving pretty slow, but nonetheless, here we go.
On May 1st, Senator Deb Stabenow from Michigan unveiled the Rural Prosperity and Food Security Act. Now, The Rural Prosperity and Food Security Act reflects more than two years of bipartisan work on the Senate Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry, and as I understand it, it incorporates more than one hundred bipartisan bills and the work of senators on and off that committee.
As it's stated this addresses the issues of foreign ownership and farmland. It builds on a commitment to rural communities making meaningful investments in the farm safety net. It also aims to help millions of Americans make ends meet by continuing the five year update to the Thrifty Food Plan.
This TFP included in the bipartisan 2018 Farm Bill, which helps ensure that nutrition assistance reflects the realities of how Americans buy and prepare food. It also makes critical investments in public water and wastewater systems and so much more. So, if you're a subscriber, be watching your inbox for our post series you blogs.
We, we work to do those after every series. And in that blog, you're going to find resources and links to the articles and the research and the policies that we're following and that we're recommending to you. And as always check out the resource page on theruralimpact.com website. And you can just click your way to the details from there.
Okay, moving on, now let's turn the chapter to today's episode. This is the first of a three-part series we're calling Pathways and Policies to Ensure Rural Learners Succeed in Place and Why It's Essential for America's Future. As I mentioned earlier, I could not be prouder to welcome Ascendium Education Group as our partner for this series.
And to kick us off, we decided, hey, why not go to the top? So, we went ahead and we reached out to the Department of Labor, and I am so thrilled to tell you, because again, the hence part of this is why it's important for America's future. Joining me for this conversation, you'll hear from Manny Lamarre, Deputy Assistant Secretary in the Employment and Training Administration at the United States Department of Labor.
And when you listen to Manny, oh, it's just a, such an excellent conversation, so much ground that we covered. You are going to gain a wealth of information how the administration is contributing to let's say increasing efficiencies and functioning of the U. S. labor market by providing high quality job training, employment, labor, market information and income maintenance, very interesting income maintenance services, primarily through state and local workforce development systems.
We also talk about registered apprenticeships, and I can promise you that while this is not information you're going to read about in your local paper, if you're still fortunate to have one.
I think it's really deserving of front page news in the context of increasing rural opportunities and prosperity. Now, in the second half of the episode, I am so excited for me, a person who's been interested in the work of civic sector. I was joined by Mary Wurtz, Policy Analyst at the Council of State Governments, as well as Andrew Campbell, and Andrew is Policy Program Manager in the Research to Action Lab at Urban Institute.
Both Mary and Andrew were involved with the development and release of the Council of State Government's Public Sector Apprenticeship Toolkit, and each of them share a deep, deep commitment. You're going to hear that in their voices and what they share to building the kind of capacity that creates abundant opportunities for rural learners to achieve their highest potential through apprenticeships.
With all that said, you know, I invite you at this point to get into your podcast conversation frame of mind and listen to what Manny Lamarre, Mary Wurtz, and Andrew Campbell have to share in this Rural Impact Conversation. Are you ready? I am. Let's go.
Michelle Rathman: U. S. Department of Labor, Deputy Assistant Secretary in the Office of the Employment and Training Administration, Manny Lamarre. Thank you so much for joining us here on The Rural Impact. We are so, I mean it, appreciative that you could be here with us. And in particular, because we are kicking off our new series that's focused on Pathways and Policies to Ensure Rural Learners Succeed in Place, and this is important, why it's essential for America's future.
So again, thank you for joining us. We're very grateful that you could be here with us.
Manny Lamarre: Absolutely. And thank you, Michelle. We're super excited to join you. And really excited to kick off this conversation. Thank you for reaching out and engaging with the Department of Labor. We think this is really important to be engaged in this conversation.
Michelle Rathman: You know, I've been doing my research as I always have to do. And one of the things, you know, I am, I'm such a policy wonk in so many areas. And I go to all the department's website and what was so amazing to me was going to the Department of Labor website and you open it up and like, Oh my gosh, there is so much going on here.
And we really hear about employment figures and, you know, kind of the, the big high level numbers that they give. But I wonder if you could start us off by just really giving us a good overview of the function of the area you're in, which is Employment and Training Administration. And really dialing in on the work that you're doing to serve rural and as we say under resourced, because I don't think they're underserved.
There's lots of people out here trying to serve, but maybe under resourced is a better term.
Manny Lamarre: Absolutely. Thank you for that. And thanks for that framing. You know, just really quickly, just taking a step back when you hear the Department of Labor's Employment and Training Administration really at the core of the mission of the work that we do is really contribute to a more efficient function of the labor market.
And we really do that through a variety of ways, in particular, four ways. Number one, which is really important is high quality job training. Number two, labor market information. Number three, income assistance and number four is really around employment. So, we think about this core mission and the work that we do.
We've really taken an intentional kind of approach and really wanted to look back of how can we better serve and support, and to your point, resource, ensure that communities are resourced. Through that, in the past several years, we've actually been very, very intentional in laying out a vision for a new vision, quite frankly, right, in the, in what we call ETA 2030.
ETA, again, is Employment Training Administration. And at the core of that ETA 2030 vision, we're really deeply thinking about four areas and all of them really connects to the resource and communities. The first one is around, how do we open up opportunities for vulnerable populations or communities, and communities at large?
What that means is how we think about the work that we do, whether we're talking about the investment side or the policy side, and the program side. Right? At ETA we're really the core you know, the workforce development arm of in the United States. And it's really through a federal, state and local partnerships across the board, but it's really across investments, policies and programs.
But when we think about that, we say we need a really, a new vision. We need to continue to push forward to really account for the changes in the labor market. Whether it's, you know, COVID, whether it's technology, whether it's just broader changes that's happening, how do we think strategically and that opening up opportunities for vulnerable population is really critical because that means, how are we now thinking about rural communities?
How are we thinking about broader additional communities as well? Or even the populations within the rural communities? We know that it's not one size fits all, we know that there's a variety of differences across rural communities and how do we be more responsive to that?
The second one is around industry partnerships at least, good jobs. So it's not just now about taking away from just population in the communities. How do we actually ensure that these resources are really building good jobs and really engaging industry? Whether we're talking about registered apprenticeships, which we know is a hot commodity.
Michelle Rathman: We are going to get into a lot of that.
Manny Lamarre: Good. Great, great. It's a very clear earn and learn pathway to, into good jobs or sector strategies or on the job training or education in community colleges.
But I think at the core of that, when we, we think about that is that we know that there's been heavy investment, and in particular the Biden Harris Administration, there's been significant investment, whether we're talking about the CHIPS and Science Act, the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law that's bringing water, clean energy you know, and really thinking strategically around our nation's infrastructure, but as well as the Inflation Reduction Act.
Those in legislation, bringing about very concrete investments to communities, and we want to ensure that rural communities have the opportunities to engage and lead quite frankly, in this work.
The two other areas of our vision and is just around one is around care economy. And the reason why we talk about and think what they care economy and, why that's essential, you might be thinking like, why, like, why, like, how does this come up as one of the top four pieces? Well, we know that two things, one to be successful to, if, you know, Manny lives in a rural community and I want to, ensure that I can access those good jobs or I want to access whatever, the opportunities, two things might be limiting.
One is whether I have long term care, short term care, childcare. But then two, other broader supportive services, whether that's transportation or whether that is you know, books and, and other educational related materials that I might need. So the broader supportive services, like, we think is really important and crucial to ensure that, when you leave training, you're leading into a good job, but you're also just supported along the way.
Final fourth area is around the future of work. We know that with the changing technologies that's happening. It's not just in the future. It's already happening now. Whether it's in small micro communities, broader communities, these changes are already happening. So, we want to be intentional that we're responsive to this and in position communities to be ready for it now.
As well as think about our young people. How do we think about, you know, what are the things I often hear from when I engage with leaders in rural communities and community members, they're talking about, the next generation and make sure how can we ensure people actually are able to live and work and thrive in the communities that they grew up in and not just have to leave because they may or may not come back?
And so with that, to do that. We have to ensure that we have pathways for young people to access now into the communities to be successful. So those are really the four things that's driving and that's at the core of what ETA does.
Michelle Rathman: Oh my gosh. And everything you are talking about, it just, I want to remind people, this is what connecting the dots are all about because you can't, you just can't focus on one thing and not understand how integral it is and attached to something else and everything that you just said.
I mean, you know, and in really defining what are good jobs? So what I like for you to, to the best of your ability, just kind of hone in on the rural employment thing. Because I, I think as I travel and the conversations I have, I don't think enough people really understand the breadth of opportunities there are for rural employment. Of course, we know there are roadblocks and barriers, but if you could just kind of give us an overview of rural employment and training opportunities and maybe a little bit about the workforce outlook, because I was listening to another podcast today.
And, you know, again, we're talking about in healthcare workforce shortages. And I would imagine that, within the framework that you just described, which is a lot of really great, important things happening, that you're seeing some trends in rural employment and workforce, and what are some things that we should be watching where rural is concerned?
Some of those statistics that are important for us to have handy.
Manny Lamarre: No, absolutely. I think what's really important is I'll just take one step back though to say that how we approach and specifically as it relates to rural and how we're engaging within rural communities. I think one really important thing to know, and this is where, when I talked about in the beginning about our labor market information.
And the way that we do our work, we want to ensure that communities are empowered to lead on it. And so when we talk about labor market information and kind of in demand occupations, we actually look to the communities to actually define that. We empower them with the tools and the resources. So, for example, I would say the key thing that we consistently hear across the rural communities and particularly the sectors that come about are one, infrastructure.
That comes across and when we talk about infrastructure, that's across the board into whether we're talking about, again, water, whether we're talking about you know, the importance of just, your bridges, the highways and roads and ensuring that communities are able to, one again, reflect the success, but also are able to thrive and able to get access to those training.
Healthcare consistently comes up in particular you know, whether we're talking about, aging population in some communities or being able to ensuring in other communities that they have access to those are able to support their young child care services.
So, healthcare, infrastructure, those two consistently come up. But quite frankly, and this is why I want to take a step back and say that we know that differences across rural community. I remember hearing this a long, long time ago. And if you go to one community, rural community, that's one rural community.
Michelle Rathman: You've seen one.
Manny Lamarre: And so, in some instances, and this is why we don't define the particular occupation to prioritize. So, for example, in our workforce opportunities for rural communities grants. It's an initiative that we have, and it's in partnership with the Appalachian Regional Commission, the Delta Regional Commission, and the Northern Border Regional Commission.
We fund grant projects within those areas to really support workforce training. But I think this is what's important is that we let the community define their priority industries. So, in some rural communities, it might be education, like they're thinking more priority around how do we ensure that our classroom teachers are able to have access to you know, pathways to ensure that it's focused on education.
In some rural communities we're talking about broadband. How do we ensure that there's, adequate, appropriate broadband, not just to be able to access and excel in your work, but at the same time, how do we scale more of it in terms of from the workforce side?
And in other communities, it could be technology. You know, whether we're talking about how do we think about this remote or virtual reality? Like, how can we augment, opportunity center that are young adults are adult population, dislocated workers. How can we ensure that they're supported?
In other communities is Veterans. You know, they're, it's thinking strategic about how do we ensure that we're supporting that population? So, I provide those specific examples, because I do think it's important in how we approach the work will lay out broad pictures around priority industries. But we let the community define those, identify those, specific drill down to the specific pieces, because we know that there's differences and to do that.
The second thing I'll just say is partnerships and that's really important element how we think about the work. And so, we want to ensure that in the partnership element. Is thinking about how do we connect the dots now? So, we've defined, we say, here's an investment opportunity here. Like, there are workforce opportunities for rural communities that we recently released.
But interesting, right? Like, how can we connect those opportunities to other opportunities that we have, whether it's our strength in community college training grants? And for that one, that was, we recently released is, 55 million dollars with an additional 10 million for evaluation.
That's to build capacity of in community colleges, because we know, and this is where the partnership piece is important. Depending on what community you're engaging, it's a different, they have a different center. That is the center of that community for the workforce development. So, in some instances, it might be the local workforce development board.
So, we fund the Department of Labor's ETA fund state and local workforce boards to really scale and drive workforce training in local communities. But we recognize that in some communities, the local board might be the central entity that's serving as an intermediary. But in another community, it might be the community college.
And the community college might be the central place.
Michelle Rathman: I was just going to actually, you just was a perfect transitions because I was going to ask you about the strengthening community colleges, because we are going to be focusing on that in this series. And, you know, just one example is just building capacity. There's that, you know, that word again, to scale up, if you will, to make sure that community colleges can provide baccalaureate programs.
Okay. And all sorts of culinary training or what have you. You know, I know you're, you're so busy. I wonder if this is a kind of an issue that are a topic that I think is probably very near and dear to your heart from what I'm reading about your background, which is apprenticeships for rural adults for all adults.
But apprenticeships, including those who face barriers to employment. I would like, you know, apprenticeships in some areas may be so readily available because there's lots of industry, lots of opportunities. But in a rural sense, you know, rural -centered, if you will, apprenticeships. Tell us a little bit about the apprenticeship programs.
And I know there's a whole website dedicated to apprenticeship.gov, but could you talk to us a bit about the intersections between rural and the programs that you're familiar with?
Manny Lamarre: No, absolutely. No, absolutely. So when we think about registered apprenticeship for folks you know, listeners that may not be super familiar, the 32nd really of the apprenticeship and i'll get to some specifics, is that apprenticeship is one of the strategies. So, the other things I mentioned were like, kind of like the big picture pillars, but when we drill down to what's the specific strategy for particular, when we talk about high quality job training.
Apprenticeship rise to the top because we know it's a proven model. It's where you receive paid on the job training with a mentor and classroom instruction that leads to nationally recognized credential. So you could be able to go from different places with those skills and competencies in those credentials.
At the Department of Labor ETA, we're the agency that actually oversees the, from the regulatory perspective of registered apprenticeships, but we also work in some states. So, it depends on the states. In some states there's what's called the State Apprenticeship Agency. Other states is the Office of Apprenticeship Department of Labor that works directly with organizations on the ground.
From the rural perspective in the community, of the things we have wanted to do is we wanted to, you'll hear this consistent theme around capacity because we started off around resources. We've actually been scaling up resources across the board, different types of resources to support rural communities. One of them is what we are what we have a Technical Assistance Center.
We have technical assistance centers, and we have what we call Registered Apprenticeship Intermediaries. Those Intermediaries or the Technical Assistance Center that we have one around thinking strategically around equity. And again, when we talk about in the context of equity, it's actually about community service.
And how do you be responsive to a particular community? So, sub communities, it might the focus is on rural communities. But in other communities, it might be on a particular population, whether we're talking about women in a particular sector, or we're talking about, you know, black or African American individuals or individual with disabilities.
So it varies across the community, let the community define and focus on that. But going back to the registered apprenticeship component, just really quickly is that we've been leveraging, we've been providing funds. And so just recently, this opportunity closed, but we have two ways that we're sending resources down to states.
And then we work with the states and those states themselves are leading to scale apprenticeships and rural communities. The first way is to a formula base where we're sending states a certain amount of dollars where they have flexibility to build the capacity of the actual apprenticeship system. Those are formula dollars and where we recently announced one hundred million dollars that's going to states.
But then we have what we call Apprenticeship Building America and those are competitive grants. that partners and communities can come together. So, we've seen whether we're talking about broad based communities and partners coming together to really build out registered apprenticeship programs in various sectors, right?
And so, sometimes people think about apprenticeship, they only think about in one particular sectors, but we have apprenticeship in cyber security, in water a sector, and education and, you know, it runs about health care. Apprenticeship could be done in a variety of ways, but going back to the resource piece, we put out grants so that partners could come together to apply and build out the models of the apprenticeship, but they were talking about a pre-apprenticeship that prepares an individual.
Or a registered apprenticeship that is, where an individual can be successful. One example I think about, I mean, there's a lot of examples, but I think about in the education sector, whether we're thinking about in Iowa or Las Vegas where in one example. Where a school district develops a registered apprenticeship program. And what they're doing is, and this is in one of the states where they're partnering with other school districts in rural communities, because they know that they need more capacity, but that school district is serving as a sponsor for a lot of other school districts in all the rural communities.
So, doing it each by one, they all are coming together and make it more efficient.
Michelle Rathman: Cause it's kind of like a mentorship for an apprentice. I mean, it's just amazing. And I, my goodness. All right. So, you answered so many great questions. And I know also I've heard about, I saw a press release and I'm not sure if you can speak to this or not, but we are going to focus some attention on civic apprenticeships as well.
You know, because in rural places, civic engagement anywhere is important, but no more if my travels that civic, like county level, city level. You just don't wake up one morning and say, I think I'm, there's a lot of,
Manny Lamarre: you're right. And to that point about the civic engagement, I think it's just a broad, but the public sector. I actually often, say that you can't have a strong private sector without a strong public sector, and that includes civic engagement and that include your public sector workforce into that.
And, one, specific example for that is recently the President launched an Executive Order on Federal Apprenticeships. And so launching that Executive Order, and that executive order focuses on, you know, a few things, but the core thing around, how do we bring how we think strategically about public sector apprenticeships?
And so we're leveraging that as an opportunity to actually amplify scale and work through public sector apprenticeships to ensure that individuals have access to register an apprenticeship, but also that registered apprenticeship can be using in the public space. So, when you mentioned the civic engagement, I think about it in the context of civic engagement is about solving a problem, right?
And you're coming together to solve a problem in your particular community. And for us, and this is why we're excited about the Executive Order is that it's an opportunity now to actually build out and leverage registered apprenticeships in the public sector and identifying best practice, identifying lessons learned, identifying where we could put resources.
And I will even say that in our funding, in our resources, we have in the past specifically mentioned, sectors such as the public sector. So, if a community wants to come together and say, “Hey, we actually want to focus a apprenticeship on the public sector,” they have the flexibility to do that.
And there's examples across the country where that's happening.
Michelle Rathman: All I want to say is I want to shadow you. I want to just like follow you around all day. I want to be a part of those conversations. Honestly, I wish we had so much more time. Deputy Assistant Secretary Lamarre, thank you so much for your insight. I will tell you, I really mean this. Any share, any information you have to share with us about the work that you're doing in rural America, you come back and visit us anytime, because it's worthy for us to tell our listeners.
We're so appreciative.
Manny Lamarre: Thank you so much. I'll just say, in terms of resources, just to close it out a few one is apprenticeship.gov. It has everything you need to know about registered apprenticeship in terms of resources, policies and contacts. A second will be our grants.gov page. It is a revamped page where we actually are even where we forecast future funding opportunities where so if you're in a community and you want to think about ahead of time, how do you come together and create partnerships to be more competitive for the Department of Labor funds and grants, not just at ETA, but across Department of Labor, check out grants.gov. That's the second one.
And just want to nerd out in terms of, in policy in terms of partnerships in some examples and webinars, I would say we have a, you know, Workforce GPS and Career One Stop. Those are all also really good resources to nerd out on the weekends and learn more about our different programs and policies.
Michelle Rathman: I think our idea of nerding out might be a little bit different than other
Manny Lamarre: all right.
Michelle Rathman: but I'm with you and we'll make sure we put all those resources up on our resource page. Again, thank you so much. And I just want to remind everyone, don't go anywhere because this conversation is not over. We're going to keep going staying on this track with some new guests.
So we're going to take a quick break, stay put, and we'll be back for this Rural Impact Conversation.
Manny Lamarre: Excellent. Thank you, Michelle.
Michelle Rathman: Andrew Campbell, Policy Program Manager in the Research to Action Lab at the Urban Institute, and Mary Wurtz, Policy Analyst at the Council of State Governments. Thank you so much for joining us on The Rural Impact. We're really appreciative for your time and what will be a great conversation, I am sure.
Andrew Campbell: Thanks so much for having us.
Mary Wurtz: Great to be here. Thanks, Michelle.
Michelle Rathman: Thank you so much. Okay, so you're coming at this. You're the second half of a conversation that we're having on this topic. And the first part of the episode we heard from Manny Lamarre, and for those who may have just joined us, Manny is the Deputy Assistant Secretary at the U. S. Department of Labor, and we did touch on the subject of apprenticeships and the pathways for opportunities they offer and specifically in the rural context.
And so for our conversation, I'd like to really stay focused on this subject. Mary, I'll start with you because you and I were just talking a little bit. So often we think about apprenticeships for the public sector and we think about, you know, trades and things of that nature, but not quite a year ago, about July to be exact last year, you, along with a coauthor, Jackson Beauregard, you wrote a piece titled, "States Promote Apprenticeships to Expand Career Pathways During the 2023 Legislative Session."
So that was a year ago. Now in your piece you cited, and I'm going to quote, "that according to the U. S. Chamber of Commerce, there are approximately 9. 5 million job openings in the U. S., but only 5. 6 million, I'm doing my math here, unemployed workers to potentially fill those roles." Now, considering these workforce shortages, which a year later, I'm not sure how much better we're doing, but in many, many states are pursuing opportunities to expand works, work based learning and to invest in upskilling existing workers through registered apprenticeships.
So, let's dial into the rural situation, because when we talk about opportunities, as I said, for adult learners and workforce, our minds go straight to public or private sector. I should say. But we know that public sector employers are also quite challenged. Rural is no exception. So, let's start by talking about those challenges for local governments and filling that work, those workforce needs.
Mary, what's the situation?
Mary Wurtz: Absolutely. You know, you're so right, Michelle, that people, when they hear about the workforce shortages, always jump to the private sector. And I think that's in part because the public sector and rural governments are no exception to this, have a real PR issue.
There is just a lack of awareness across the board about what kinds of work opportunities are available through a job in the public sector. Because just about every job you can think of under the sun with a few exceptions is available in the public sector. I. T., human resources, administrative roles, construction, engineers, lawyers, nurses. I mean, the list goes on of roles that are available in the public sector, and yet folks just aren't aware that these opportunities are out there.
And that's one of our biggest challenges that Andrew and I come across in our work when we engage with rural communities is just that lack of awareness. And then we also hear from rural governments that they struggle to get folks in the door because the wages typically start off lower compared to those similar roles in the private sector.
Even though many of these positions are stable jobs, they have great benefits depending on what state you're in, it might be a union job. And then rural governments are also being hit really hard by the brain drain as young people exit their small towns to attain higher education and fail to come back.
And those who stay behind, we hear, are often kind of have that stereotypical distrust of government, and they aren't necessarily interested in a public sector role. So, you know, overall, I think it's a big PR issue and that's part of what we're trying to help do is, bridge those opportunities and help folks build awareness of these opportunities to grow and have economic mobility.
Michelle Rathman: You bring up some points that my goodness, that's why you're here. I didn't even think about that because of potentially the mistrust. And at the same time, I have to believe I have been myself personally, and people who listen to this podcast know I have been so interested in civic service. And policy my entire life.
I mean, I can remember back in the 5th grade as young as the 5th grade. No, you guys go without me. I'm going to, I'm, I'm reading this. So. let's flip the question because, you know, although they might not know about it, but let's just say we are talking about someone in a rural community who is of age. It has an interest in a civic sector career, but lacks the resources to develop those skills.
What are some of those barriers? I mean, aside from not knowing about it. What are we seeing out there that maybe pulls people back and says, it's not even a possibility. It's not my reality.
Mary Wurtz: Right. Well, you know, a few weeks ago, Michelle, I was at an event put on by Partners for Rural Impact, the Rural Summit in Lexington, Kentucky, and I was sitting in a presentation led by a consortium of community colleges about building resiliency skills on community college campuses, but stay with me. There's a connection.
And they were talking about teaching young people in rural communities. You know, what do you have to do to enact change on your campus? And the answers that those folks were giving were, well, to enact change, you have to be the president. To enact change, you have to run for Congress.
And it was all about teaching those kids that, you know, you can make change and enact change in your own community, in your own, world right around you. And I think it's the same thing for, you know, helping folks access those public service careers.
You don't have to be the president to be a public servant. You don't have to be the mayor of your small town. You can work in construction. You can be an HR specialist, things like that. So just beyond that, you know, initial mental barrier. I mean, we're doing this work from Maine to Idaho all across the country, and we hear about the same challenges pretty frequently on the individual side.
Transportation is definitely one we hear about pretty frequently, especially when individuals might need to drive over an hour to a job or a training site. Childcare is something we hear about all the time in some of the communities we work in. There isn't a single licensed childcare provider in the entire county.
And then broadband access is definitely improving. There's a lot of, federal funds coming down into communities to at least improve things on that front. But, you know, it's far from perfect. And if an individual wants to access a training program, virtually. Maybe their nearest CTE provider is hundreds of miles away.
That can be a big issue too. And there's certainly funding available at the state level, at the federal level to help connect individuals to these kinds of wraparound supports. But in our experience, rural governments are already maxed out rural employers, more broadly, you know, same thing. And they don't necessarily have the time or capacity to identify these resources and make the connections for their employees.
Michelle Rathman: And despite the need, so, oh my gosh. So Andrew, I want to bring you in here because you also worked on a piece focused on, and this is a couple of years ago, public sector apprenticeships. And in the piece you and two others penned, and I'm going to share this, "public sector apprenticeships are powerful and underutilized tool for your workforce, economic development. When state and local governments create apprenticeship programs for roles where hiring is a challenge, they benefit from an infusion of talent. At the same time, apprentices receive benefits by earning wages, learning new skills and building valuable work experiences."
But before we get into what's working to address the challenges, Mary just kind of outlined a plethora of challenges that we see.
So let's talk about some of the roles that policy has in this because it's one thing to say, Hey, you know, I'm not really sure where to start. We don't have the capacity, but policy in there and that's your focus, Andrew. So what role does policy have and kind of bridging these gaps that we have?
Andrew Campbell: Yeah. Thank you so much. And you're seeing why I love working with Mary. She brought up a lot of pieces that I'm going to touch on now. I mean, you know, policy really shapes the world around us in lots of small and big ways. You know, one thing that I want to touch on quickly first is just the barriers piece. You know, an important policy that can affect all of our lives is previous work experience requirements or education requirements that might be in jobs.
So one important way that we're trying to address some of these policy issues in state and local government hiring is to help them use apprenticeship to remove some of those traditional barriers for individuals to access these quality jobs.
And because, government plays such a substantial role as an employer across the country, removing barriers to these quality jobs can really support economic mobility for those individuals and for their families. So that's one, small policy issue, but, you know, on a big policy lens, it also has the opportunity to bring new investments and resources to communities.
And we're seeing that right now, you know, with the Infrastructure Investment Act, the Inflation Reduction Act, which is going to bring a lot of resources to local governments and local communities to kind of rebuild and strengthen our infrastructure, you know, invest in climate resilience.
So not only is local government, state government, a major employer. There's also a lot of resources and energy through policy coming to these communities and, and there's going to be the creation of even more good jobs and more hiring needs especially as we think about that, that green economy and green infrastructure going forward.
So those are just a couple of small ways that policy is playing a really big role and we're trying to help the government, you know, remove some of the barriers to, to meet some of their own workforce needs.
Michelle Rathman: I love that we're talking about the fact that you don't have to look at, you know, it's not necessarily state, but local is so important. And as you both know, that I share with you, I work in so many rural communities, but with many public hospitals, and the need to have county officials and city officials and boards open up those doors of opportunities.
And what I want to touch on Andrew, before we move on, is that, so much of what I'm reading and what you share with me, and I want you to share it with our listeners is that, you know, the solutions found in apprenticeship programs are not just to fill the pipelines and, create a robust, resilient workforce, but the work that you're doing is really targeting learners from low income backgrounds.
And sadly, so often still today left behind. Because if a career, an academic career going to a community college or a state college is just out of the realm of possibilities. Tell me what apprenticeships can do for those individuals who are deserving of opportunity. But because of their financial constraints are unable to go forth and attain something in the traditional post secondary.
Uh, yeah.
Andrew Campbell: Absolutely. I mean, you're, you're absolutely right. There's a whole host of reasons why someone might not be able to access opportunity when it is there. One of those is, you know, these requirements around previous work experience. I think we can all relate and empathize to our younger selves as we were trying to break in.
Another thing is just awareness of these opportunities that Mary was speaking about earlier. And I think one of the things that apprenticeship does, is it helps, you know, both see opportunities and it creates a real pathway to access those opportunities. Because you're not hiring based on being a skilled worker with previous experience.
You're hired on potential. And someone who's willing to learn and you learn through a combination of on the job training and mentorship and the supports that are really baked into that structure so that you are gaining skills, gaining competency to become a fully kind of fully fledged worker in that occupation, in that specific workplace.
And it really kind of bridges that gap, from someone who's coming in without that experience, to now at the end of a one year, two year, three year, four year program, depending on the complexity of the occupation and what you need to learn and do well to succeed. You know, at the end of that, you are exiting with a real job in a real workplace, and you have gained mentorship. You've gained the skills to succeed. You've gained, that professional network that is also so important for, for staying in the workforce. So, there's a lot of things that we see that do work for apprenticeship that can really take someone and help them achieve that economic mobility.
Michelle Rathman: You know, and the goal is because when you have an apprenticeship program that's successful. And I want to touch on something in a moment, Mary. At the end of the day, one of the goals must be to retain because you don't want to do this apprenticeship program. Say, okay, fly off and, you know, be successful somewhere else.
Part of this is to, a big part of it I imagine, is to retain that talent that you've helped develop. You know, Mary, we talk a lot on this podcast about capacity building. And as Andrew is talking, I'm thinking, okay, you've got willing, able, very eager individuals who want to get in there and do an apprenticeship.
On the flip side of that, you have to prepare, you need mentors, you need people within those organizations who have their, the capacity to teach. And when there's so much workforce shortages, and people are wearing many, many hats. If you could, before we move on about the work that you're doing together, how do you prepare an organization, a city government, a county government, or a civic entity to receive apprenticeship apprentices? And really do right by them. Simply stated.
Mary Wurtz: Well, Michelle, it's the bain of my existence right now, basically. So, it's funny you put it that way. But it's such a good question. Cause I know, you know, when Andrew and I started this, you know, current project funded through Ascendium, which we'll talk about in a minute. I think that we thought we would kind of hit the ground running and start building programs right away.
And, so much of the first 12 to 18 months of this project has just been, you know, doing that relationship building with state and local government agencies that is required to do the myth busting around apprenticeship. Because in many ways, apprenticeship is the oldest job training program under the sun. When I first learned about apprenticeship, I thought, oh, that's like how people became blacksmiths in the
Michelle Rathman: Days of yore.
Mary Wurtz: Yeah. The days of yore. Didn't associate it with the 21st century at all. But we've been teaching people how to do a job by having them be mentored by someone else pretty much forever. But when people start hearing about, you know, registering a program and, collecting data on your apprentices, and getting the standards approved by DOL, it, it all serves to strengthen and legitimize the system. But it also can really freak people out. Especially, you know, a tiny town government that maybe the city clerk also runs the library and drive the school bus, right?
So, a lot of what we do in our role is to do that myth busting, explain, the many benefits of registered apprenticeship, which the retention pieces is one, but just, you know, one of many parts that, folks can benefit from, explain why this is different than maybe what they're already doing.
We often hear like, well, we have interns. Isn't that the same thing? Or we have nursing students do practicum. Isn't that the same thing? So we have to, you know, explain those differences and things that
Michelle Rathman: Why don't you do that for us real quick? What is the difference between an internship and an apprenticeship? Just for our listeners who might closely relate those two.
Mary Wurtz: Yeah, of course, which is super common and there's many similarities, right? But a registered apprenticeship program is you know, what you were talking about with Manny a bit earlier. It's a DOL vetted, US DOL vetted, job training program that combines on the job learning with classroom instruction and mentorship.
And there's a very you know, closely guarded set of quality standards that US DOL has to make sure that everyone in a registered apprenticeship program is getting trained from day one. They're getting paid from day one, et cetera, et cetera.
But an internship could be anything. It could be four weeks. It could be four months. It could be three years. You don't really know. It could be paid. It could be unpaid. It could be part time. It could be full time. You're typically, you know, not often, although sometimes you are considered an actual employee on the payroll. Sometimes you're just dropping in almost like a job shadow experience.
It's a really, you know, nebulous term with no one set definition, and there's no one, you know, guarding and kind of vetting each and every intern out internship out there, which. As one who once interned, don't I wish there was sometimes? But yeah, it could be anything. Whereas a registered apprenticeship, you know what it is, it's industry recognized, it's industry vetted, and you have the federal government who's protecting those quality standards.
Michelle Rathman: There's a pathway. So you, you two are a very interesting combo because you know, Andrew, Urban Institute. Urban Institute on the Rural Impact. You, you have, you have that reach and Mary with your work, but why don't you tell us a little bit about the grant that both of your organizations received to address the issue of good sector civic sector jobs and that are currently experiencing a shortage of qualified workers, because there's an immediate need?
So Andrew, why don't you kick us off and then Mary, just tell us a little bit about how you two interface and the work that you're doing. And then I want to talk about a few success stories because we always want to hear on the good note of what your work is doing on the ground.
Andrew Campbell: I'll let Mary tell a little bit more of the story of the grant, but I just wanted to quickly jump back in and you know, because you're absolutely right, Michelle, that we see the, you know, the most successful programs are those programs that have a real emphasis on training the trainers so that they are ready to support apprentices and create that positive working environment, both for the apprentice who is learning on the job and for the individual who is providing that on the job training.
And what you're speaking about in terms of, like, what do we do? The role that Urban and CSG plays, you know, I think you're speaking to the importance of intermediaries.
You know, this is a term of art in apprenticeship. And it's a term kind of coined across a lot of the modern apprenticeship systems around the world. And intermediaries like us provide a lot of technical assistance and support to employers to help them get it right. And so, organizations like the Urban Institute, we do a lot of research and evaluation on programs to see what works and documenting some of those best practices.
But we also create a lot of technical assistance tools and resources for employers. You know, like we've produced a lot of mentoring guidebooks and mentoring toolkits to help individual employers create their mentorship plan, and we've created sample mentoring scenarios and games that they can take away and, and learn from and adapt to their own purposes.
And that's the kind of stuff that, you know, intermediaries can do to help fill those needs because apprenticeship is something, you know, that employers do sometimes need a little help with to get right. And so, you know, we are filling that space as intermediaries and support. So I'll hand it over to Mary to
Michelle Rathman: I mean, I can imagine because if you, if you go into the mindset, say like, I got to train somebody. You know, you get that cringe versus I get to mentor somebody. You need that. You need that person to show up. Okay. Mary, tell us about the work that you're, that you two are doing together. And then, and then we'll, and then, because Andrew, I've got some policy questions for you because we are all about connecting the dots to policy on this podcast too.
Mary Wurtz: So, the project that Andrew and I work on that we've alluded to up until this point in this conversation is funded through Ascendium Education Group. And, basically it's a three year pilot project to work with very directly with two states over the course of three years to help them actually do the work of building out those apprenticeship programs in state and local government.
In 2021, CSG and Urban hosted the nation's first public sector apprenticeship consortium. Where we had a competitive application process, states could apply to come together at one of CSG's national convenings, and they had to form state teams of folks from state HR, from local government, from the state apprenticeship office, from the legislative side of things, to build action plans to implement programs in state and local government.
And then from there, we selected two of those states, Maine and Idaho, to say, okay, we like you best. Just kidding. But no, how can we work with you over the next three years to take those action plans and actually carry them out? So we have been working for about a year and a half. We're about halfway through this project.
And, and we've, you know, learned a lot in terms of what works and what doesn't work when interacting with state agencies, state HR, local governments, state HR. HR in general, often has a lot of questions about how does this work within our states.
Classified personnel system, which is merit based. And so that adds a whole nother layer of fun policy, you know, opportunities that we get to tackle, which Andrew can certainly speak to. But we are just getting to the point where we're getting ready to launch some programs, hopefully by the end of this year. One for city clerks in Idaho, we've already helped see the development of a psychiatric nursing apprenticeship.
And under the main Department of Health and Human Services that actually came directly out of the consortium that we hosted. So, we're already seeing some early successes. We're helping to bring those stakeholders together and play that intermediary role. Like Andrew said.
Michelle Rathman: I'm so excited to, to follow, to see. So now you, you launched the, you've done all the, that seed work you, you get, you match up the employers. Now you're going to get the apprentices in there, those candidates. And then down the road, I'm assuming that you will kind of follow those individuals and track their success.
That's so exciting. Andrew, let me ask you this, you're, you've got policy in your title and you know, so much of the work that both of you are doing is whether it's policy that it's born out of government or, or philanthropy, because there's so many things that we have to follow through the policy lens, Andrew.
I want our listeners to understand the kinds of things that number one, we need to be advocating for. I always ask guests when I can, you know, at what's in your advocate’s toolkit and what are some of the policies that you're seeing that are, are really required for, for these partnerships, these civic sector apprenticeship partnerships to, to really work because it's policy at the end of the day, that's the bottom line.
Andrew Campbell: Yeah. No, that's a, that's a really great question. And I would just say, you know, this is policy change work, but this is also systems change work. So, I'm really excited to talk about that second piece about the partnerships because you can't do it alone. But I think when it comes to, you know, maybe the advocates toolbox, that we've seen this work in other countries and you know, we see a hiring need from the, the public sector, they need apprenticeships just as much as the private sector as just another pathway to hire, train, retain talent, and we see, you know, year after year there's this great research organization, Mission Squared Research Institute that puts out great data on public sector hiring needs.
And I think in the most recent job openings data from BLS, I saw 815, 000 active open positions and state local governments that could start in the next 30 days. So, I think the point is that there's real evidence that this is a pathway that would be beneficial to both public sector employers and to the individual apprentices who might, you know, who might apprentice in these positions and gain access to these careers.
So. My advocates toolkit is that we've seen this seen this work in other countries we should be doing more to remove barriers, and we are seeing lots of states getting interested. Like I said, we had that public sector consortium where we had a number of states apply. I think we had 18 States apply and we were only able to take six.
So, there is a lot of appetite. A lot of states are setting ambitious targets for growing apprenticeship. They're starting to recognize the need and you know, the federal government just released, you know, the Biden Administration just released that executive order on creating apprenticeships in the in the federal government and public agencies across the federal government.
So, I think we're starting to see some real momentum in the space and real acceptance that the apprenticeship is another pathway that should be utilized and, and just to your point on on the partnerships that are needed.
I mean, I cannot state how important it has been to engage at the state level. You know, our partners, both at the apprenticeship side. So, in Maine, for example, we've been working very closely with Joan Dolan, who's the director of apprenticeship at the main department of labor and the main apprenticeship program. But equally important on the HR side, to Mary's point, we've been working with Jessica Crosby, who's the director of talent management at the Bureau of Human Resources for Maine.
And, you know, she has been instrumental in helping create those new classifications, those new job classifications for apprentices and helping us help them navigate the wage progression that is built into the regulations around apprenticeship. And just helping, you know, I think I like to say that all of these are solvable problems when it comes to aligning the apprenticeship regulations and standards with HR and government hiring. It requires some adjustment and adaption to make it all fit together.
But through those close partnerships with HR and with the apprenticeship experts, they are solvable problems and we can get there. And this is a viable option.
Michelle Rathman: We, we have to envision what we want it to be, not
Andrew Campbell: Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle Rathman: backwards. You know, today we, we know there are so many challenges. Andrew and Mary, I do think about from my world, the challenge for, you know, we didn't talk about public health, for example, those are all civic sector jobs and they have been, let's be honest, they have been beat to a pulp the last few years.
And, and so the idea here is that the mentors then, you know, their enthusiasm and their interest in their drive to bring new people into the fold. That is so important. Okay, Mary, before we go, I'm going to ask you this from a learner side, what is in your advocate's toolkit for individuals who say, I want an opportunity?
We know, where do they start? Where do they even seek to find an opportunity to find themselves in a role where they can even apply for an apprenticeship and then hopefully go on to, you know, serve on their, their city council or their government their county or state government or what have you.
Mary Wurtz: Yeah, I can't recommend enough that learners who are interested in a job training program like this to enter a public service career or whatever career you dream of for yourself. Start with your state's apprenticeship office. And this was a point that I was going to make in response to what Andrew was saying too. Wherever you're listening in from all 50 states, there is a State Apprenticeship Office in your state DOL, State Department of Workforce Development, whatever you call it, where folks are tasked with helping employers build these programs and helping connect learners to those programs. And so it looks a little different in all 50 states where to find a list of those programs.
Folks can also visit apprenticeship.gov, which is the USDOL website for apprenticeship. And they can search programs all across the country. And they can search by occupation, they can search by location. Find these programs out there. You know, unfortunately, we're still at a stage where you might have to ask and go, you know, take a little initiative and find that information yourself.
But we're also seeing these programs trickle down into traditional career and technical education programs and high schools too. So, you know, schools are getting better at connecting learners who are interested in these kinds of opportunities to these programs as well. But I'd say, you know, start with your state, you know, job link your state apprenticeship office, whatever your state is using to advertise openings in your state and go from there.
Michelle Rathman: Well, we are going to make sure that we put all those links on our Rural Impact website and I would imagine that local libraries are there, you know, to help you do some research as well. So make sure that you tap into their expertise and there's probably apprenticeships for that too.
Mary Wurtz: If not, there should be.
Michelle Rathman: If not, there should be.
And I bet if anyone creates it, you two will. I wish we could continue this conversation, but you better believe that we will. And as I said, we're, we're going to have all your great links and articles, and I just encourage our listeners to go to your websites. We'll put those links and just read about the fascinating work that you're doing.
It's not something that's normal, you know, water cooler conversation. But it should be, and we're glad to be a part of bringing this to our listeners’ attention. So Mary Wurtz and Andrew Campbell, thank you so much for spending your time. You're both very busy individuals. And so, we really appreciate your expertise and your insights today.
Congratulations on all the great work that you're doing together.
Mary Wurtz: Thank you, Michelle.
Michelle Rathman: All right. Thank you.
And I want to put a very special thank you out to Ascendium Education Group for their support in bringing you this Rural Impact Conversation. And as always, you know, I want to say thank you to our great podcast team, Brea Corsaro and Sarah Staub.
To all of our listeners and subscribers, remember to rate us. We like that. Leave your comments and reach out to us if you have any ideas or news about your rural impact that you want to share. As I leave you, I remind you to take good care of yourself and to everyone around you. Nobody else is better at that than you.
And we will see you next time on a brand new episode of The Rural Impact.
