29. Rural Learners - Kirstin Yeado, Mike Gutman and Shaniqua Corley-Moore
Michelle Rathman: Hello and welcome to another episode of The Rural Impact. I'm Michelle Rathman and we are so glad you're joining us for another conversation that helps to connect the dots between policy and rural everything that we can think of. Again, we're so happy that you're here. Okay, today we present our second episode in our series focused on pathways and policies to ensure rural learners succeed and why this is essential for America's future.
Now, on the last episode, we focused our attention on the apprenticeships and all the promise these hold, not only for those who apply for and complete them, but also for employers and the public sector and why it's important for them to embrace them. Because there are so many aspects of this topic that we do want to talk about, today we're shifting the conversation to focus on the landscape of post-secondary education for rural students, and that includes the barriers so often holding individuals back from reaching their highest potential and achieving their career goals, as well as what it takes and why it's important to eliminate these barriers.
And lastly, we are going to be talking about how organizations are really harnessing the power and promise of the digital and tech space to not only catapult rural adult learners into career success, but this is really important to provide rural communities with tremendous opportunities to expand their employment opportunities that genuinely ignite economic growth and development.
So, at this point, you may be thinking, Michelle, what does this have to do with policy? I'm glad you asked because here are just a few dots that I want to connect before we dive into the conversation.
You may recall that in October of 23, and this is less than a year ago, the Biden Harris Administration named 31 that's 31 regional tech hubs to create jobs in rural and underserved communities. So, what does this mean in the context of our conversation today? Here are just a few points. First, these investments, as I said, are designed to support regional economic growth and improve American competitiveness.
There's no denying that this is very important for our future. Another key here is that the move is intended to create, as I said, high tech industry jobs in designated rural and underserved areas. And when you think about that, we think about job creation in rural, and so often our minds go to manufacturing or agriculture, but isn't it just really refreshing to know that we are expanding the scope of that to make sure that tech is a part of their future as well, our rural future as well.
And finally, tech hubs are part of the CHIPS and Science Act, and that's meant to fuel semiconductor and tech innovations beyond areas, traditionally known for this work, like the Silicon Valley in California and Seattle. Why should they get all of this when there are plenty of opportunities for us to expand this into a rural?
That is all to say, as you think about policy in terms of the issues familiar to you and your everyday rural life, I hope you'll take away from these conversations that when the will and the way meet in the middle, there is rural opportunity. And because I am not an expert in these areas, I am joined for this episode made possible with the generous support of Ascendium.
You're going to hear from none other than the ever fantastic Kirstin Yeado, Kirstin is Senior Program Manager at Ascendium Education Group, and you're going to hear from two individuals whose name, if you travel in the rural circles, you may know, Mike Gutman, Workforce Development Manager, and Shaniqua Corley-Moore, Head of Tech Talent Development, Both of them from the Center on Rural Innovation, and they are doing some just truly outstanding work.
I cannot wait for you to hear all about that. Okay. But that said, you know what time it is to put on your podcast, listening cap, tune out that background noise and dial into this Rural Impact Conversation. Are you ready? I sure am. Let's go.
-------
Michelle Rathman: Kirstin Yeado, Senior Program Officer at Ascendium Education Group. Thank you so much for joining us on The Rural Impact. I mean it when I say we're really grateful for your time and expertise, and I can't wait for this conversation.
Kirstin Yeado: Awesome. Thanks so much, Michelle. Glad to be here.
Michelle Rathman: Well, we go way back. We won't go into the history, but I've known of your work for quite some time, and I follow it because I, I do think it's so important in the context of everything we're talking about here about connecting the dots between policy and rural everything, and education is certainly in workforce are two very important aspects.
So, you know, Kirstin, we just come off an episode focused on rural public sector apprenticeships. I learned a lot. I learned a lot about how they're creating enormous opportunities for both adult learners as well as civic sector employers. We heard some really great stats about some of the, I mean great in the context of, it's good for us to understand where our deficits are, therefore the opportunities lie.
But today I'd like to shift the conversation to a related subject and that is the post-secondary education. So let's start off the conversation there by giving our listeners a snapshot, if you will, of what post-secondary education opportunities even look like in rural communities today, because the landscape has changed since COVID. The need is there, but the landscape has changed. So why don't you just give us a lay of the land of what that looks like today?
Kirstin Yeado: Yeah, absolutely. So happy to provide an overview and landscape. You know, we know that every rural community and every rural region is really unique, but there are definitely some trends that we're seeing across rural America generally. So just to set the stage, we know that there are significant gaps in the rates of post-secondary enrollment and completion among rural learners when compared to their urban and suburban peers.
We know, for example, that 21 percent of rural adults have a bachelor's degree compared to 35 percent of adults from urban areas. Now, those rates are despite rural learners graduating from high school at similar and sometimes even higher rates than learners from urban or suburban areas.
So. What's the story here? There's, there's clearly an opportunity gap underneath those statistics. And there's a few things that we think about. First, we know that most students nationally, well over half of students nationally, incoming freshman at public four year institutions are attending college within 50 miles of their hometown.
So, most students going to college stay relatively close to their home. But there are 35 million people in rural communities who live in what we call education deserts, where they have access to zero or maybe only one public institution. So, a lot of times in rural communities, simply access, physical access to an institution can quickly become a barrier that really limits opportunity.
And if that institution does not offer an education or training pathway that interests you, you're presented with some really tough challenges. At the same time, however, I do think that there are a lot of institutions working in or serving rural communities and there really is a lot to celebrate there.
So we know that there are 1,087 what we call rural serving institutions across the country. This is data that is from our friends at the Alliance for Research on Regional Colleges, who with some funding from Ascendium, developed a framework for how to identify and define rural serving institutions or RSIs.
So, a few things across rural serving institutions, they represent 46 percent of all public four-year institutions and more than half of all public two year institutions. And I think another interesting thing to know is that rural serving institutions represent a third of historically Black colleges and universities and 93 percent of tribal colleges and universities.
So, there are several institutions working in and serving rural communities, and they really represent the diversity in cultural contexts of rural communities throughout the country. So, there's really a lot to celebrate there. I think in short, yes, there are real challenges, but there are also a tremendous amount of assets and institutions doing great work in rural communities that we can really build from.
Michelle Rathman: So, those are really interesting numbers. I mean, I don't think that readily known data that you've just shared. So, let's just touch on just for a moment, because before we can get to some of the solutions, it's important for us to understand the barriers and these are barriers that an institution themselves cannot, you know, just remove because it's, it takes some, some real lifts and some collaboration.
So, you talked a little bit about just distance, what maybe if you could name a few other obstacles that you're seeing out there that rural learners face and even, you know, that keep them from embarking on post-secondary journey? I mean, I think that's an important place for us to, to really focus some attention.
Kirstin Yeado: Yeah, absolutely. So like you said that access piece, I think, is the first obstacle that we really think about. A second set of obstacles that I think about, I call kind of limited access to supports. And what do I mean by that? So, almost any college student will benefit from some type of support during their time in college.
So whether you're getting support related to mental health, transportation, housing, or simply attending an institution that has really robust advising services so that you have somebody to help guide you with your course selection and career pathways, those supports are critical for any student. Any student.
Michelle Rathman: Childcare
And I think that's, childcare. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that this is especially the case for learners today who are not the typical 18- to 22-year-olds that I think many people have in their mind when they think about college students. Learners today, especially those from low income and rural backgrounds are older and they are balancing several other responsibilities.
So, 41 percent of learners today work full time. They work full time and attend a post-secondary institution part time. Nearly 20 percent, so one in five students, cares for dependents while they're enrolled, whether that's their own children, or in a lot of cases caring for aging parents or other family members.
And so immediately, we know that things like access to transportation and childcare, like you said, are essential. And if you think about the context of rural communities, I think rural learners in particular, are managing this along with several other things like long commutes to work and class, increasing childcare costs, and to your comment, Michelle, that's if you can even find childcare providers in your community, increasing housing costs, and that's all on top of just studying and getting support with your courses.
So, it's
Michelle Rathman: financial obligations, the loan, the tuition.
Kirstin Yeado: Yes, yeah, all of that I think combined, you know, you immediately get a sense of just how difficult it can be to navigate all of that, especially if you're living in a community where those supports are not easily accessible, where you may not have, you know, a transportation system or a childcare facility located close by.
And I think the third set of barriers that I'll mention I'm going to call kind of institution or system obstacles. Post-secondary institutions across the board, both urban and rural, have faced really significant budget cuts in recent years, but rural institutions in particular have been chronically underfunded and under resourced, and they are often asked to do more with less.
And so, we know that rural institutions tend to serve communities with lower rates of employment, higher rates of poverty. And as a result, those students need more supports, but the institutions simply don't have the resources to provide that. We also know that given the difficult budget context that we're in, many rural institutions have had to close or eliminate academic programs.
So we've seen stories out of very rural states like Kansas and West Virginia, for example, talking about how majors and programs are being cut and that leaves students with fewer and fewer options. If you're a student raising a family in rural West Virginia and the only institution in your community has cut a program of interest, what are you supposed to do?
I think more and more institutions are thinking about remote options and, you know, how to provide access to online education, but as you and your listeners know very well, that requires access to really strong broadband internet, which is not a guarantee in rural communities.
Michelle Rathman: And you know, on the flip side of that, I think about, I mean, so there's the obstacles for the rural learners. I mean, you have this passion, you have this idea of this, this path that you want to follow, but the opportunity disparities don't just impact rural learners because let's be honest here, the barriers impact workforce and economic growth in rural areas as well.
You know, we talk about the brain drain and all that stuff. So, we remove the barriers. It's not just for the benefit of the learners. We have, you know, shrinking employment opportunities beyond, you know, kind of non-skilled, if you will. And I think everyone who works, I'm not saying that you're, it's not a skill.
I mean, everyone wakes up and they do with their best that they can. But at the end of the day, the things that you're talking about impact local economies because they don't have the, the talent to fill those pipelines. Right?
Kirstin Yeado: Yeah, absolutely. I think very well said. You know, I think we at Ascendium very much believe that education and training are an individual's best bet to moving into good jobs, getting on that path to upward mobility. And when those pathways aren't there, it means those good jobs are out of reach. But, those good jobs aren't just out of reach then for that individual.
You know, it really impacts everyone in the community. We know that then employers are going to be struggling to find employees who have the right set of skills. If they can't find those employees what do they do? Those employers might leave, and that ultimately is a barrier to economic growth. It's a lower tax base, a tax base that might prevent future investment.
So, it becomes this really vicious cycle that might start with impacting individuals, but ultimately it really impacts entire communities. And so that's really our, our role at Ascendium, we're trying to find the best way to really disrupt that cycle by making sure that we can get learners on these pathways to good jobs so they, they can stay in their communities and don't feel like they have to leave.
Michelle Rathman: You know, I would go further so you're not trying, you're doing,
Kirstin Yeado: Yeah,
Michelle Rathman: because there's a lot of evidence out there and you know, and I'm going to say this because I've said it often, same thing with in, in healthcare and broadband, I know someone who's doing the work in transportation, were it not for philanthropy, where would we be?
And philanthropy plays a significant role in removing these barriers. And so, I wonder from your perspective, and this is your life's work, can you share with us what you believe the role of philanthropy is in helping to remove those barriers? And basically the responsibility that you all have taken on to do that.
Kirstin Yeado: Yeah, it's a great question. And I, I think philanthropy can play several roles. And a few things that I think are top of mind for us at Ascendium. So, first is when we launched this rural focus area of our investments in 2019. We did so with data in mind. We knew that rural communities were overlooked, that a fraction of philanthropic dollars goes to rural communities nationally every year.
And so, we knew that if we were a philanthropic organization that wanted to be serious about closing gaps, we could not overlook 20 percent of the population that is rural in this country. And so, we, we very intentionally chose to invest in rural learners and rural places. And I think with that context in mind, we see our philanthropy is really doing a couple of key things.
One is just finding the programs that are working and making sure that we bring those to rural places. In this case, rural places that have, you know, been overlooked. We want to make sure that any investment that we make in a community is really focused on building the capacity of the community to sustain the work.
So, the last thing that a philanthropic organization should do is fund a program and then leave and do so without helping the community consider how this work can live on. And so, making sure our investments support things like community partnerships or data systems are really important. Another important role for funders that I, I want to touch on just briefly is really the importance of investing in research.
So at Ascendium, we support evaluations of programs and research to help generate evidence about which programs are effective and why. And that's really important for a couple of reasons. One, this can help make the case for additional investments, especially public funding that can help sustain these programs in the long term.
So, within philanthropic organizations, we might be able to take a risk, invest in something that a state or local government doesn't have the funding to do. And if we can support an evaluation that demonstrates that a particular program is really successful, that then provides the data to help make the case for why government should then invest in and sustain that program in the long term.
So that's a really critical part.
Michelle Rathman: That's a great point because it's that kind of like seeing is believing and where you, where others are timid, you dare to go and we talk a lot on this podcast about capacity building and it's kind of like this abstract term. But at the end of the day, I'm reading something about in 2023, March of 2023, so over a year ago, Ascendium announced a grant partners for building evidence to increase rural learners success. I mean, it could not be more clear. And part of that is building capacity, so I wonder if you could just share a little bit about some, some tangible examples of how you're working to build capacity to ensure learners succeed?
I mean, research is a big part of it. We often talk about the fact that, that, you know, data informed decisions, but rural specific data is kind of hard to come by if you're not really focused on that.
Kirstin Yeado: Absolutely. Yeah, I think there's the word capacity can be quite big and broad, and I think lot of things that fall underneath that. So, a couple of examples that come to mind. We have a partnership with an organization called the National Center for Inquiry and Improvement, and they are working with 16 rural community colleges throughout the country to help them implement key strategies that we know are critical to helping learners complete a credential or degree.
So, things like really improving their advising for learners, developing partnerships with employers so that the moment a student steps on a community college campus, they know who the employers in the local community are, they know exactly what the jobs are, and they know how their degree or credential is going to set them up to take and be successful in one of those good jobs.
And so, helping to build these partnerships between community colleges and employers, and helping people actually gather local labor market information and think about what does this mean? You know, does this labor market uh, do these labor market needs align with our programs?
And do we need to add new programs? Those are really, really important capacities that we can help to invest in with our grant dollars. I think another example comes from some work that we're doing within the tech and IT sector. We know that technology is changing at an incredibly rapid pace and is really changing the way that every sector works.
It does not matter which sector of the economy you work in. Manufacturing, healthcare, education, you name it,
It's everywhere.
It's everywhere. It's changing the way that we do daily business. And so we need to ensure that folks in rural communities have access to training pathways that provide that digital literacy, and then also prepare learners and workers to be successful in roles that require a particular expertise in IT.
And we're really excited about our partnership with the Center on Rural Innovation, who I know will be joining you for this conversation. And their work is really focused on expanding digital pathways in rural communities, and we're really excited to help them invest in the, the capacity of organizations, provide that time and space that's necessary for employers and post-secondary institutions to really sit together, map the tech and IT skills that are needed, and then make sure that training pathways exist for folks in rural places.
Michelle Rathman: I'm excited that you're doing that work with them as well because you're right. We are going to have them on to continue this conversation. But, you know, I want to talk to you a little bit about the policy piece. And I ask this of everybody because we are all about connecting the dots between policy.
And this is another subject, you know, that, that very closely aligns with that. What policies do you think, I mean, the, you guys are doing whether the policies work in your favor or not, you're plowing through and you are getting things done and you're consistently working with these organizations, industries and communities.
But what policies in your estimation are needed to remove the barriers that we talked about? And then from there, I kind of want to ask you what's in your advocates toolkit, because I think there is probably a lack of understanding of how we advocate, because you talked earlier about, you guys can create a model, but then you need public sector dollars to come in behind and say, this is what is going to help it be sustainable.
Because whether you might want to, you might not be able to be there forever. You got to spread the love and do your work in other places. So, let's talk a little bit about policy 1st, and then what advocates can do to really make sure that that, you know, we've got some, get some traction.
Kirstin Yeado: Yeah, absolutely. So, when I think about what's top of mind for us, you know, when we're having conversations with policymakers or things that we think need to change, it really is a lot about, you know, funding. Rural institutions and workforce training programs have been a really chronically underfunded.
So whether you're at a 2 year or a 4 year institution, or you're an apprentice somewhere, you know, your institution or program should have the funds to make sure that you can access resources like transportation or health or child care to be successful. Access to those resources and the ability for public funding to support things like that is not always feasible.
There's a lot of federal funding programs that don't include those supports. And so that's something that we think should be changed to ensure students can be successful. There's also, I think, a lot of ways that funding can incentivize partnerships between institutions and employers.
There's some really great research from the National Skills Coalition, one of Ascendium's grant partners, that talks about the importance of investing at the state level in partnerships between rural community colleges and industry partners and how that funding can be a really, really critical component of partnerships that are constantly using labor market information to make sure that community colleges and other training programs are offering degrees that directly align with the needs of local employers.
So, students have a clear path to good jobs. And then, you know, in terms of the advocates toolkit, I think one of the things that we have seen across all of our grantees is just the power and really building on the assets that you have in your community. Regardless of where you are, there is a partnership that can be formed between non profits, employers, K-12s and any post secondary institutions, and really pulling everybody together to identify what are the labor market needs, what are the training and education pathways that are required? That is a really critical foundation to then being able to access public dollars or federal dollars, of which there are a lot available right now, particularly through the USDA and the Department of Labor.
And I think the federal government has a real focus on making sure that these funds get to rural communities. So, I encourage people to get connected with the Federal Rural Partners Network, for example and to really collaborate with organizations in their community to identify, like, what are our needs?What are the opportunities and how do we come together to try to secure those resources for our community?
Michelle Rathman: I am so fascinated by your work. I'll, I'll trade, like spend a day in your shoes and then, you know, in healthcare, we have a saying about, you know, from cradle to grave. And I really think about your work, from that, those for early learners all the way through adult learners and how important those connections are.
And sometimes it can be so hard. Those lines can be so blurred, but to me, there's clear as day. And I just really appreciate your insight and you are right. We are going to have, we're going to continue this conversation, Kirstin.
So next up, I'm going to tell everyone don't go anywhere. You've just heard part of the conversation, but as Kirstin mentioned, we are going to be welcoming our next up on this episode the Center on Rural Innovation, and you're going to hear from two outstanding rural contributors. I promise you, you're not gonna wanna miss it. Kirstin, thank you so much for joining us and thank you so much for the work of Ascendium and for joining us in this partnership and being able to amplify your work. It means a lot and I hope that our listeners learn a lot from the work that you're doing.
And we're gonna make sure we put links in our website so that they can tap in and, and read all about all the places that you are and the rural institutions that you are supporting with capacity building. It's tremendous.
Kirstin Yeado: Thank you so much, Michelle. I really appreciate the work that you do and always appreciate the opportunity to join the podcast. So, thank you.
Michelle Rathman: Thank you. All right. Stay right, right where you are. Don't go anywhere. We're going to be right back with this Rural Impact Conversation.
Michelle Rathman: Okay, we're back and I'm joined by Mike Gutman, Workforce Development Manager and Shaniqua Corley-Moore, Head of Tech Talent Development at the Center on Rural Innovation. And I just want to say sincerely, thank you to both of you for joining us on the Rural Impact. We're so glad that you could join us today.
Thank you.
Mike Gutman: Happy to be here.
Shaniqua Corley-Moore: Same. I'm so happy to be here.
Michelle Rathman: Well, this is such an important subject. You know, we, as our listeners know, we've just come off a conversation of the first part of this episode that I've had with Kirstin Yeado from Ascendium. And we touched on opportunities in the tech space for rural adult learners. And Shaniqua, because you are very familiar with this space.
I thought I could start with you because, you know, I know that the Center on Rural Innovation is all about, tech opportunities. So why don't you first start us off by focusing on how your work is enabling rural workers and organizations to expand technology workforce, because this is not something that we think about.
I think more and more we are, but still it's, it's probably a bit of a mystery for our listeners. So how are you doing this? And then we'll talk about the why.
Shaniqua Corley-Moore: Absolutely. So, I believe that we as the Center on Rural Innovation, also known as CORI, we focus on enabling rural workers and organizations by expanding their tech workforce pipeline through several initiatives. So we start by inventory and assessing what their current tech talent pipeline in their rural community looks like. This would include their different training programs, internships, job fairs, system supports, and then by identifying all of these different resources, we then can pinpoint where the gaps are and how we can address them effectively.
We actively engage with employers, which is what Mike does with his work. In order to understand the needs of the actual community and then align those training programs accordingly to be able to create approachable connections. Through all of their events and site visits, along with sharing the most powerful piece, which is the success stories that come out of the community.
So, all of that through accessing different tech jobs, tech workforce development, and then program implementation on how communities, within their own establishments can then utilize the assessments that we have conducted for them to then establish partnerships, acquire different types of funding, and then raise that community awareness.
Because most of the time, what we, what we've heard is that there is a lack of awareness, whether it be through knowing what jobs are out there, knowing who can apply for which jobs. We do all of that by also helping them build out and do an implementation phase where they're creating that connection with employers, but also building out their local talent by providing mentorship and creating job boards in order to facilitate that. So, that's one of the ways we go about building out that and enabling that rural workforce.
Michelle Rathman: Yeah. And, I think, you know, for many of our listeners, who use technology every single day in their everyday lives, I just, I don't believe there's a great understanding about how much tech opportunities there are in rural. And so Mike, I'd like to shift the conversation a bit because as Shaniqua said, your work is on the employer side of the equation and obviously to educate and train a tech workforce, it's essential to understand an employer's hiring demands.
And it, you know, it doesn't have to be like, you know, computers. I mean, it's everywhere. Right? So, talk to us more about some examples for employers benefiting from a rural talent. That is tech savvy, tech trained, tech ready for the workforce.
Mike Gutman: Sure. So, when we go out to different communities and we're hosting roundtables with employers to understand their demand, understand some of the obstacles that they're facing when trying to find talent. We find that there's a little bit of a mismatch. And the reason being, is that when we ask employers what they're currently outsourcing for tech or digital jobs, we have to define what tech or digital jobs are oftentimes.
And that's a big piece of creating awareness on the employer side and on the, you know, job seeker and skilled demand side. Because when we think about digital jobs and tech jobs, that can mean so many different things for different people. And so we'll just define it real quick
Michelle Rathman: Yeah, a couple of practical examples. I appreciate that.
Mike Gutman: Yep. So, when we think of tech jobs, we think about the jobs that build the infrastructure for people to work online on computers. So, people who are building the IT infrastructure, people who are building websites, people who are building apps, people who are building tools. Those are all the builders.
And we call those builders in, you know, in tech. And the digital jobs of the ones who the jobs require those tools to do their jobs, like digital marketing, like program and project management. Those are all the digital jobs. So, when we would define that for employers. They recognize that, you know, as they're thinking about how they're connecting with the educational institutions within their communities to seek and find that talent, they can reframe their focus and also reframe how they're writing their job descriptions to try to attract talent within that community.
And so those are some of the aha moments. And I think some other pieces are When we're asking folks what they're outsourcing, they're outsourcing a handful of both digital and tech jobs. And when we ask employers in the room, raise your hand if you would prefer to insource, meaning hiring from your community versus outsource, if you could find talent, 99 percent of the employers raised their hand.
And that changes the conversation, especially when we have educators in the room with us. And they say, 'Oh, my goodness, those are hidden jobs. Those aren't jobs that are appearing on job boards. If we now know that we can now upscale our community to meet those demands and keep that money.'
Keep those jobs in the community.
Michelle Rathman: It perfectly leads into my next question because a lot of the work that you do, as you just said, is empowering local leaders to build tech economy ecosystems. And so why you know, why do that? And what has been some of the impacts? Because I do, I think you're right. I, there, there's so many of this that is like under the radar screen, you know, be happening behind closed doors or factories.
So what does it mean to empower local leaders whose economies may have relied on, as we were talking before we started recording today, the auto industry and those jobs are no longer there? Or maybe agriculture has shifted because agriculture now involves a great deal of technology, as I understand it.
So let's talk about what it looks like to empower local leaders who, if our local leaders are listening and they say we need an infusion of excitement of jobs of what does that actually look like? And what have the impacts been over the years that you've been doing this, either one of you?
Shaniqua Corley-Moore: Yeah, I'll take my first stab at it. And I will say that for the actual community partners is to find the ones that are wanting to make a difference in your community, building out those engagement partnerships. And make sure that those partnerships, you guys are all on the same page. Because what we have realized is that employers, they want to see what they're going to get from a situation, but also you need to be able to come to them with that specific ask of not throwing everything at them.
But be very specific and what you're looking for. And I feel like that goes both ways when you're looking at any partners that you're trying to bring to the table, have that specific ask ready to go and be willing and able to provide the support that they also need from you as an individual. So, having having that give and take type of relationship and knowing that that is the type of relationship that is going to be out there.
Michelle Rathman: Is there a general enthusiasm? Is there kind of trepidation about this, Mike? I mean, when you do this assessment with employers, I mean, once they kind of get past the, this, could this actually be us? You know, what, what's kind of the sense that you get from employers who realize that there's kind of a whole new layer that they can peel back and explore?
Mike Gutman: Yeah, I think, you know, let's start from the high level of traditional economic development has been. Let's bring in a large employer, a large manufacturer, large agriculture, you know, business to come in and say, we now have 100 jobs that didn't exist in the community and trying to attract and lure those employers to come in.
Now, we've seen through our research that agriculture manufacturing is on the decline in rural areas, when traditionally that's been the major source of employment. So, when we're talking to leaders and employers, we're asking, you know, now we have a situation where we need to diversify the job economy and diversify the skill set in the economy.
Whether we like it or not, we are in a digital economy, and I think saying that in a matter of fact way, people need to be doing business online. They need to be, you know, advertising themselves online. Businesses need to meet people where they are, and many people are online. So, when we break it down that way, I think leaders within the community recognize the value of diversification in skills in the community and how that leads to community resilience.
And so developing training programs to. Basically, you know, create those skills, but it doesn't make sense to train people if there are no jobs for them because then they leave. And that is something that leaders really can grasp is declining populations and declining workforce age folks in their community.
Because if they get skills and there's no jobs, what's in it for them to stay?
Michelle Rathman: That's right.
Mike Gutman: And so, employers get that too, because they see what's happening to their town. And so, they're trying to figure out, all right, 'Are there ways for me to modernize my business by adopting technology to help make my business grow? And if I do that, I need to implement somebody who has the skills to help me do that.'
So that's one way employers are thinking about it. And the other one is the outsourcing piece, which we talked about. And then the other piece is, you know, sometimes employers don't know what they need until they're actually sitting down and talking with a group of other employers about adopting best practices as you're getting this collective innovation conversation that's happening as employers start to talk to each other.
And all of those things are at play as leaders are trying to figure out how they fuel the fire of a digital or tech economy in their community.
Michelle Rathman: Okay. So we're gonna shift gears a little bit because I know, Shaniqua you have a very long, your resumes, you've, you've been around, as they say, been around the block. You've got a lot of experience, and I would imagine in, in all of your work, in both of your work, we know that, and I heard a conversation about this on another podcast about the fact that the work that you do to build capacity.
We talk a lot about increasing capacity and not in these abstract terms, but to really understand how you build capacity. And as a part of that, we know that philanthropy makes that possible. And that is true for the work that you're doing as well. So, can you talk a little bit about how your capacity building works and then with that, how you rely on philanthropy to help you build capacity?
They go hand in hand, do they not?
Shaniqua Corley-Moore: Oh, absolutely. They go hand in hand because without philanthropy and without federal grants and dollars, we wouldn't be able to do the work that we do as a nonprofit. So, I would say for our capacity in itself, it's almost building up our team. First and foremost, building up our team with inside CORI to be able to provide that extra capacity that we see in community.
So being able to go inside of a community, host that round table for them, or be able to be that person that's making the phone calls for them because they have their hands full with wearing their many different hats in their own community that they're trying to serve. And so just being that extra hand for them, providing them with a lot of guidance and a lot of research based awareness around the things that, as we may think as being the norm, but providing them with the resources and the guide and the tool kits to be able to go out and do that work.
So wholeheartedly, we definitely believe that philanthropy on the other side of it definitely feeds into our model because without it, we wouldn't be able to do what we're doing today.
Michelle Rathman: You receive and give, and it just this great cycle. And I know that, one of the things I was so fascinated about your work is that you can build something and then just kind of test it out and then you can replicate it that, you know, they say don't reinvent the wheel. So, I know that you are working, your collective work that you are working with communities that are in progress right now through the support of Ascendium.
Can you talk just a little bit about kind of that whole cycle, identifying employment needs among local employers, designing and implementing tech training programs? Can you give us kind of a, a snapshot of the communities that you're working with so that people, I like to say, planting a seed thought that people say, this could be me?
Shaniqua Corley-Moore: Yeah, absolutely. So, we're working in six communities doing a pilot, where we're trying to help the six communities build out their tech talent pipeline from start to finish. Leaving it to where it's sustainable in all of these communities.
So, the six communities that we're working with from the East Coast all the way to the West Coast, we're working in Wilson, North Carolina. We're working in Ada, Oklahoma, Sela, Alabama, Chambers County, Alabama, Cochise County, Arizona, and then Taos, New Mexico are our six communities. And they are very different. And one of the things that I will always reiterate that our executive director, Matt Dunn always says is one rural community, when you've seen it, you've only seen one rural community. Because they all have so they all have various and different needs.
Michelle Rathman: And, and Mike, what about the work that you're doing? I mean, so you each, you kind of tag team. So, Shaniqua, you're working with the learners. Is that correct? And then Mike, you're working with the employers.
Mike Gutman: Yeah, I would say our work cross threads all the time. Shaniqua and I are on the road often, and we're at these same meetings with the same people. And I think this leads into perfectly some of the things that we've learned. And I'll just share them, which is when we first started this work, we wanted to implement a backwards design model.
So, understanding the employer demand first, because that is the ultimate goal to get people to have higher paying technical or digital jobs. We don't understand what that is. We're upscaling people into nowhere into leaving. So, if we don't understand the employer demand first and get the employers engaged through that upscaling cycle, then we're not doing the community, you know, it's justice for what we want with with jobs and opportunity.
So that has been the first step. Now what we've realized, is that when we were first just having employers in the room, those are great dynamic conversations, but there's a magic that happens when you start to bring educators and students and job seekers into that same place.
Because now many of the different stakeholders who are all participants. In this ecosystem are at the table together, learning from each other in real time, and I'll give you a perfect example of something that, like, this is the magic that we see happening as we're facilitating these discussions.
We're in a community and the, the educators were in the room and saying, 'Okay, we have some, you know, curriculum consultants were employers in the region who help us figure out what curriculum is in demand right now for employers.' And we asked some follow up questions. Are those employers in your community? Are those employers hiring from your talent pool?
And that first answer was no. And that second answer was no. And so, we asked the follow up question. Wouldn't it make sense for the curriculum board to, to advise on which curriculum you're installing, be the same people who are building relationships, students, the same people hiring those folks.
And they're like, yes. All right. Employers raise your hand. If you'd like to be on that advisory board, they raise your hand. Those connections are made. That's how ecosystems are made in a sustainable way. So that's how a lot of our work comes together. And that's also how we learn. And we share those learnings from those moments to the other communities we work with to, again, as Shaniqua said, this is a pilot.
We'll take all those learnings, package them and scale them up.
Michelle Rathman: Hey, quick point of clarification. So, when you talk about educators, are we talking about community college, high school combination thereof? What are we looking at?
Shaniqua Corley-Moore: We're talking about a combination thereof. So, it can be like your K-12 superintendents that are sitting at the table. We are also talking about your community college, whether it's the president, or it is actual instructors of the content that are sitting in the room and even some tech training providers that they may have locally that are doing their own small business.
But they have the opportunity to be able to provide the tech training for people to receive national certifications. So, we bring them all to the table.
Michelle Rathman: That's awesome. And then what about any work, if we could, before we move on, just about just entrepreneurs. I mean, because it doesn't have to be some big factory or some huge operation. There's a lot of entrepreneurial opportunities I would imagine that your work could be applied just as well.
Shaniqua Corley-Moore: Absolutely. And I'll highlight actually one of our communities that has actually done it. And they're like five stars. If anyone that's watching this is looking for community to look for and get advice. That's gonna be Cape Girardeau, Missouri. They have done an excellent job of bringing in that talent, skilling them and then having them actually work for the small tech companies that are in their co working space to be able to provide them with that hands on experience.
So they've done an excellent job of putting together all of the parts that need to be in play for in order for individuals to thrive.
Mike Gutman: Good shout out because I'm going to Cape Girardeau tomorrow. And if I can, Michelle, just quickly add on to how the startup ecosystem and tech town develop ecosystems overlap. Because when we're thinking about building awareness and building a community of people who are talented in digital skills or tech skills, those communities it overlapped and intersect.
And as somebody who has had a digital career, I'd say more digital than tech career. My career path has been meandering from a consultant, from working at a company from starting my own business, to helping a startup build on the side. And I think all of these people with skills, once you get them into the same room, you now start to develop, you know, opportunity where you might have somebody who has a startup and just needs five hours of digital marketing support, and they can tap that person who already has a full time job.
And you really start to see this, these seeds is start to plant themselves and the community help grows itself. And so, I think there's a really a benefit of those two populations being cross threaded, and I really think they're one in the same.
Michelle Rathman: Gosh, I would love to see the numbers about what the actual economic impact is at some point in time. We're going to have to have you come back to talk to us about that. But before we leave, you know, this podcast, we really do work to connect the dots between policy and real quality of life. So I do want to ask you to kind of opine for a moment and answer this, which is the fact that, you know, we know that, for example, what you talked about the federal dollars.
Every dollar, every cent that comes to you through federal grants, that is born out of policy. And so, I wonder if you could talk about you know, this connection to policy and what policies are important for listeners to understand that's tied to your work success. What are the things that we're talking about there?
And then the second question I have for you to think about is. What's in your advocates toolkit? Because, you know, it's one thing to have this, you know, year over year, but it's the sustainability. So, what can advocates, local county government cities, local entrepreneurs? What are some of the things that they could be doing to advocate for more resources to kind of pour into this important work for the goal of building their local economies and economic growth and stability. So let's start with the policy first. What, what would you say about that?
Shaniqua Corley-Moore: I would definitely say when it comes to policy is understanding the rural communities as a whole, because through research, it shows that. Rural areas are less funded than you would see urban and suburban areas. So first and foremost, taking that opportunity to understand what rural communities have to offer and what's available to them.
And so I would start with looking at policies like the WIOA, which is the Workforce Innovation and Opportunity Act, talking to your local government about those particular policies. Also looking at broadband expansion policies, because when we're thinking about rural communities, we know that a lot of rural areas in order for them to have an enabling remote workforce or online training, they have to have that connectivity, which a lot of our rural areas are lacking.
And then last but not least, is also looking at, E. D. A. Applications. I know our organization does a lot with build to scale with helping communities grow. So, talking to local government in order to make sure that the dollars that are being put into those policies have specific advantages and opportunities for people that apply from rural areas.
So those would be the policies that I think wholeheartedly can help us build and create sustainable tech ecosystems in rural areas.
Michelle Rathman: I think that's a great point. So often we look to our counties for what's happening right now versus, you know, potentially what they're doing to advocate, you know, to their state legislators for those resources. Mike, what about the advocates toolkit? What, what do you think is important for those you're working with to advocate for themselves because you support them and you need their voices out there advocating so that you can continue your work.
Mike Gutman: Yeah, so I think that leads perfectly into what Shaniqua was saying, because, you know, if you're advocating for yourselves, then it's also about asking for resources. So, if you're starting at the workforce development board at the regional level at the state level, just asking the question of, like, what resources are there to help support this work?
That's a very open-ended question. And oftentimes, those resources might not be apparent, or they might be hidden. And those are the folks who are in the know from the state and then federal policy level. But at the local level, I think what people probably, I don't want to make a generalized statement, but there are resources in your community that probably you might not know that can help you.
And I will just say this from an awareness campaign. When employers saying I'm struggling to find talent now, that doesn't mean that talent doesn't exist. It means that maybe that employer has gone through traditional pathways of trying to find talent that has worked in the past, and we are an ever-changing society.
And so how do they pivot from that? Well, what we offer people is to say, if you can connect with other organizations on the ground locally to help surface that talent now. You will be more successful than if you don't do that. And when we think about nontraditional methods of building awareness within a community, we're thinking about, okay, are you connecting with your church leaders?
Are you connecting with your, you know, YMCAs, your Boys and Girls Clubs, your community centers? Think about all the different people of where they are. It comes back to where are people in your community and building awareness to say, 'Hey, y'all, we got jobs here. Here are the jobs help us surface that.' And when you frame it in the way that we have opportunity, help us share those opportunities, that is building value.
And I think a lot of communities that we've worked in, you know, are trying to reframe the how do we offer value to folks versus how do we ask for stuff without giving in return? And that changes the conversation completely.
Michelle Rathman: Absolutely, it sounds to me like people need to get in a room with the two of you around the table with stakeholders, which I, I mean, we, we do that in our work as well around healthier communities. So, it starts with a conversation. With a, with a, with a someone's interest peak about what can we do versus what don't we have?
And I, and I love that approach. Oh my goodness. Well, I want folks to know that we are going to make sure that we put links to your website on our website so that they can find you and learn all about the assessment work that you're doing, and how they might have an opportunity to invite you to travel together.
I'd like to be in a fly in a wall for one of those conversations to be sure. Shaniqua and Mike from the Center on Rural Innovation, we really do appreciate your voices, your insights, the work that you're doing. And we just again, thank you for joining us. It's been really insightful and enlightening for me.
We talk about the fact that we don't have a lot of light conversations, but we do hope that the information that we've shared is enlightening. So again, thank you. Both of you for joining us today.
Shaniqua Corley-Moore: Thank you so much, Michelle, for having us.
Mike Gutman: Thanks, Michelle. Happy to be here.
Michelle Rathman: It's my pleasure. And, you know, we also want to really just thank Ascendium Education Group for their incredible and generous support for this conversation. And again, you can hear more of these episodes. We've got a few more that are coming up for you and to all of our listeners. We thank you.
And if you've not subscribed to the Rural Impact as of yet, we invite you to do that before you sign off, wherever it is you'd like to listen, wherever it is. We're trying to be everywhere. Be sure to rate us and share your comments. Not only do we appreciate hearing from you, but it does help others learn about our work and before I forget, be sure to visit theruralimpact.com and subscribe to our email list so that you can get all the good post series, blogs and all the good stuff in your inbox, because we know you need more of that too. We all could use a few more emails, right?
Also, thanks to Brea Corsaro and Sarah Staub for their tireless efforts on each episode, and be sure to stay tuned, as I said, for the final episode in this compelling series. We're talking about educating rural educators. Next up, an incredibly important topic indeed. As I always say, until next time, take good care of yourself and everyone else around you. We'll see you the next time on a new episode of The Rural Impact.
